No absolutes!

7195 Views 32 Replies 9 Participants Last post by Bob Scott, Apr 3, 2006

Greg Long

Discussion Starter · Mar 29, 2006

I read a post somewhere not long ago that stated \"every dog has to have a foundation in prey\".Im not an expert by any means nor am I a professional trainer but I know as a fact this is not true.
Also, training agility and obedience with treats isnt the only way.Im not trying to argue which is better,just saying there are no absolutes in dog training.
As long as the training isnt abusive and you get the desired results their is nothing wrong with it IMO.
Personally I dont do any prey drive development like most do.Nor do I train with treats or ball rewards.I hardly ever use a tug and never work on a calm full grip.
My dogs still bite,jump,track and do obed.

I did a send away my 15 month old Mal the other day and a guy asked me if I taught him to that with a ball or tug...nope.

Again im not saying this is the best way but there are many ways to do things just as there are many different types of dogs.Just something to think about.

Greg

P.S. I hope this is in the right section.

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Connie Sutherland

· #2 · Mar 29, 2006

Greg Long said:
I read a post somewhere not long ago that stated \"every dog has to have a foundation in prey\"........Also, training agility and obedience with treats isnt the only way......Again im not saying this is the best way but there are many ways to do things just as there are many different types of dogs.Just something to think about....... Greg....
P.S. I hope this is in the right section.

Well, I'm answering too many messages right now because they are all interesting, so sorry for being a post hound (hahaha).......

But Greg has such a great point. It does me good to really read and think about all the different viewpoints, because I do tend to start believing that if what I am doing is successful, then it must be \"the\" way to do it!

That \"foundation in prey\" quote --- did it refer to every Sch dog, or what? It sounds so weird........to me, anyway, but I have no special-training experience.

And when I read the other (non-treat) ways to teach \"look at me,\" I got a wakeup!

Thanks, Greg.

Alicia Mertz

· #3 · Mar 29, 2006

I couldn't agree more, Greg. There is more than one way to achieve a result, and as you said, as long as the method isn't abusive, what's wrong with it? Some things work better for some people/dogs than others.

On the flip side, however, there must be something to the methods that are favored by the vast majority of trainers, as some are. Experience does count to some degree.

Greg Long

Discussion Starter · #4 · Mar 29, 2006

Connie,
The \"foundation in prey\" statement was directed at ALL protection training as I understood it.I would never mention names but it did get my hackles up.

I guess I should also explain that I used to do prey drive development and train with a ball reward and yes even hotdogs.I did get good results.I even worked on grip development using B. Flinks' methods.It all worked great.
I decided that the best thing for me and my dogs was to go in a different direction.

All I ask is that everyone stay open to all training styles and then decide what is best for your dogs and your individual goals.

Greg

Connie Sutherland

· #5 · Mar 29, 2006

Greg Long said:
Connie,
The \"foundation in prey\" statement was directed at ALL protection training as I understood it.I would never mention names but it did get my hackles up.........All I ask is that everyone stay open to all training styles and then decide what is best for your dogs and your individual goals.....Greg

Wow! A statement so flat-out all-inclusive like that........WOW! I mean, what do I know, but I DO know that \"always,\" \"never,\" and \"every\" generally precede statements that might be best read with skepticism.

Yep, we can't learn if we don't stay open-minded! You're right!

P.S. I like the sheepdog instead of sheep signature.

G

· #6 · Mar 29, 2006

The statement was actually a shot at me because I was asking for advice on how to protection train a dog who won't play with strangers; all the \"trainers\" I know around here don't know how to train in anything but \"prey\" (play) and it is FRUSTRATING. :x

Greg Long

Discussion Starter · #7 · Mar 29, 2006

Well,

Not everyone has a \"special\" dog like you Jen. :?

G

· #8 · Mar 29, 2006

Special like short bus? :x I'm being serious. You remember exactly what that was about, and don't pretend otherwise. :evil:

susan tuck

· #9 · Mar 29, 2006

Yet another reason why I like this forum. You are so right, nothing is written in stone. I think with most dogs, you do a little of this, a little of that. There are more ways than just prey! Frankly, I'm glad that here you can state your opinion without fear of getting shot down with robotic like replies! (unless you say something ridiculously dangerous).

Patrick Murray

· #10 · Mar 29, 2006

I had a friend who had a GSD/Mal mix. The dog couldn't possibly care less about a ball or any prey item, at least none that I could see. He was a very stable, balanced family companion and was an excellent PPD dog.

I think prey is introduced to a pup to get it in drive and to get it to bite and grip. And it's done in such a way to make it fun for the pup. Eventually it translates to biting on a person in a suit and it's still in prey and fun for the dog. It gives the dog a chance to work on its biting while it is still maturing and it's enjoyable for the dog.

My thought is that if the dog is to become a serious PPD dog then it will need to be put into defense and tested to see if it can handle the pressure. It would seem sensible to me to put gradual pressure and build the dog and, hopefully and eventually, the dog will be able to handle anything. Or, you'll reach a plateau and know the dog's limits. And that's better to learn while training and not when a crackhead is coming through your front door at 3 am. :lol:

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G

· #11 · Mar 29, 2006

Ah, Patrick, my new best friend! :lol:

Thank God for people who still have brains of their own, not controlled by others! Caleb is too damn old for that puppy crap anyway. He plays ball like a nut, but only with me. If I want the dog for a potentially serious situation (I don't sic my dog on people for fun, usually), why do I want some unthinking prey monster? I'm not bashing all sport dogs; I'm just saying, why not train in scenarios that might actually happen. I don't need my dog to know how to play tug with a guy in a suit who breaks into my house. 8)

Patrick Murray

· #12 · Mar 29, 2006

I also meant to add that I agree with Greg that there is definitely more than one way to train. And we can endorse that idea here because the board owner is not selling a single philosophy on video tapes. Here we can speak the truth, thankfully.

Anyway, I like the idea of bringing the dog along gradually and not putting the young dog into total defense as was done to my dog when he was less than a year old. But I didn't know any better and I was relying on the \"wisdom\" of a rather hard trainer. I can't necessarily say that it hurt my dog, in fact, it may have helped him. I can't say for sure. It's just that if I had it to do over again I would and I believe he'd still be a good dog and I wouldn't have had to scare the bejeebers

out of him to get him there.

G

· #13 · Mar 29, 2006

Greg may start selling DVDs if people keep flattering him :lol: .

Patrick, the same thing happened to Caleb. He was flanked and had a ton of stress put on him earlier on. I think it definitely set him back, but I won't say he's ruined. He's just going to take time and patience...and I am not a doctor. 8)

Al Curbow

· #14 · Mar 30, 2006

Greg, what's the different direction you went in with regards to drive developement? I'm open to new ideas. Can you be specific,
AL

Bob Scott

· #15 · Mar 30, 2006

Although I'm a big believer in prey training now, I've also been around long enough to realize not all dogs have the prey necessary to be trained in that method. I started my dog training with most of the old Koehler methods. They still work, and with some dogs better than other methods. I'd still prefer to find something the dog will work for something besides \"I told you so\". Ther are to many GOOD ways to train a dog. It's all a matter of finding what works for you and the individual dog.

Greg Long

Discussion Starter · #16 · Mar 30, 2006

Al,

I dont do any type of dog sports and Im not a professional trainer.I just show the pups/dogs what I want; be it track,bite or obstacle work.I spend alot of time with my dogs.
Its mostly direction.I direct them to climb,or bite or track.Its pretty easy once they understand what you are asking.You could say I do some prey development with the bitework but thats really not accurate either.I let them bite naturally like they want to instinctively.Their confidence grows over time as does their willingness to work for the handler.
This takes a long time to do it right.Also you have to be careful not to make something so difficult for a pup/dog that it cant succeed.

I would have to say the obstacle work is the most important aspect of this.

One thing that I want to do is get the dog to think before it reacts to a stimulus.

Im not saying this is the right or wrong way its just the way I do it and it works far better for me than the conventional ball,treat and tug methods.

A working dog wants to work for it's handler.I dont feel its beneficial or neccessary to bring a ball or toy into that relationship.

Greg

Greg

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Hil Harrison

· #17 · Mar 30, 2006

Jenni Williams said:
Greg may start selling DVDs if people keep flattering him :lol:

oh dear have we gone commercial already :lol: :lol:

Greg Long

Discussion Starter · #18 · Mar 30, 2006

:lol: :wink: :twisted:

Whats a DVD? :?

Hil Harrison

· #19 · Mar 30, 2006

Greg Long said:
:lol: :wink: :twisted:

Whats a DVD? :?

:? one of those lil silver frisbee things that if you throw em far enough it makes a great dog toy :lol: :lol:

susan tuck

· #20 · Mar 30, 2006

Okay, this is my opinion only & in no way am I saying it's for everyone, nor am I a professional: Back in the old days, many trainers used forced retrieve (not once the dog had been motivationally trained, but instead of). I think the theory was to instill \"you MUST & FAST every time). The SAFE zone was with dumbell in mouth, then front of handler. Personally, I think force method definetly has it's place, & not just in the retrieve, but it's got to be done right & very carefully. Also now, I think motivational first!

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