[Terrasita Cuffie]

Wow. Myself and many others have said we use the ecollar in a very similar fashion, (negative negative positive). Many of us have said more than once this is not new. Now you want to go back to James??????????????? Whatever Terrisita. I've had enough, now you're just talking in circles.

I could have sworn you said you'd never been to a seminar and that used some form of it or some modification. I guess I would think the person would have needed to to have trained with him in his club or a seminar or something to really know HIS way of doing it. I did forget Louise though.

T

 

[Terrasita Cuffie]

The topic gone from Nepopo to
Nevoodoo.
I'm with Susan.
Little Terra is talking in circles now.

Yep, no one other than one or two have worked Bart's system or said they "know it well." Topic done.

T

 

[Joby Becker]

Yep, no one other than one or two have worked Bart's system or said they "know it well." Topic done.

T

oh but the thread has taken so many turns, many topics are present. not all are done

 

[Terrasita Cuffie]

oh but the thread has taken so many turns, many topics are present. not all are done

Yep, I got some more stuff on how folks use e-collars-ne, po, po\\/ I don't think its that sophisticated around here that I've noticed.

T

 

[Joby Becker]

Yep, I got some more stuff on how folks use e-collars-ne, po, po\\/ I don't think its that sophisticated around here that I've noticed.

T

huh?

 

[Terrasita Cuffie]

huh?

Ya gotta be a little more detailed. I used to say no big deal training around them. They can use their collars. I could use my cookies. But I got tired of hearing dogs scream and yelp. Then the use on puppies. Dogs looked really nervy/worried. Don't remember any positive additives.

T

 

[brad robert]

Ya gotta be a little more detailed. I used to say no big deal training around them. They can use their collars. I could use my cookies. But I got tired of hearing dogs scream and yelp. Then the use on puppies. Dogs looked really nervy/worried. Don't remember any positive additives.

T

dogs can scream and yelp with a flat collar or no collar??

And if they do it with an e they dont know how to use it and believe it or not we let tossers drive cars to so there will always be some clowns out there but the right tool in the right hands is a very powerful thing.

 

[Terrasita Cuffie]

dogs can scream and yelp with a flat collar or no collar??

And if they do it with an e they dont know how to use it and believe it or not we let tossers drive cars to so there will always be some clowns out there but the right tool in the right hands is a very powerful thing.

Yes, I would agree. Look how many people screw up cookie training to the point that the dog has no discpline or that he'll only work when he can see or smell a cookie.

T

 

[susan tuck]

I could have sworn you said you'd never been to a seminar and that used some form of it or some modification. I guess I would think the person would have needed to to have trained with him in his club or a seminar or something to really know HIS way of doing it. I did forget Louise though.

T

Your sarcasm is underwhelming.
:roll:

We are talking about nenepo here, which was not invented by Bart Bellon as has been pointed out by yourself and many others. Negative negative positive is not new, so yes, I and others understand and use this particular method.

And I guess since you think a person must go to train with him in order to understand his way, then you will take your own advise and stop talking about his method seeing as you haven't so much as used the method in conjunction with the ecollar let alone trained with Bellon or gone to one of his seminars, right?

 

[susan tuck]

Bart Bellon Method...anyone know it well? I have only read about it online...

So far, I can only think of twwo people who have used it--James and Timothy Saunders?. James says over time it loses its effectiveness. That didn't seem to go over well. Other than that we have Bart Bellon's NePoPo statement and the Micheal Ellis interview. From what I can tell Bart has't competed since he began marketing NePoPo but those in hsi training club have and done well but no one has any details regarding the what or the how of what they do.

T

James said he tried the idea of nepopo. So what's the difference between James saying he tried the idea and everyone else saying they use nepopo - save for the fact that it didn't work for James which fits better for your argument, so I guess you give him more credence. Kind of like using a quote from a 10 year old Bart Bellon interview. Might not be an accurate representation of the way he trains today, but what the hell, it fits your agenda so why not use it, right?

Really funny stuff! Unbelievably funny, actually.
:lol:

 

[Terrasita Cuffie]

Your sarcasm is underwhelming.
:roll:

We are talking about nenepo here, which was not invented by Bart Bellon as has been pointed out by yourself and many others. Negative negative positive is not new, so yes, I and others understand and use this particular method.

And I guess since you think a person must go to train with him in order to understand his way, then you will take your own advise and stop talking about his method seeing as you haven't so much as used the method in conjunction with the ecollar let alone trained with Bellon or gone to one of his seminars, right?

Actually, I was't being sarcastic. You said: Connie I don't know for a fact that what Bart Bellon is advocating is escape training since I have not personally attended one of his seminars. I can tell you that I don't utilize escape training, nothing against it, it's just not the way I was trained. I teach a dog using motivational methods. Once I have taught the dog, I will use the ecollar (nepopo) to get him faster or more accurate or whatever tune up it is I'm looking for. For example, let's say I want more speed on recalls or a faster sit or platz out of motion or more speed on dumbells. I will give my command then stimulate the dog, when he gets to me or when he sits (depending on the exercise) no more stimulation and a food reward or even just a big praise reward, either way it's a version of nepopo that works for me and those who taught me the method.

The question was whether anyone knew Bart's system well. Somewhere down the line came the issue of how do you get the behavior to begin with. No one including you seemed to know how Bart did it. If you do something different, is that NePoPo? Or is NePoPo limited to just that and nothing else is relevant to th results he achieves. I thought Joby was interested in Bellon's method. He already knew how he used his collar in his training. What was unclear was how Bellon used it. In one of the discussion turns we got into escape vs. avoidance training which you said you confused when you said you didn't do escape training. In training a dog, I assumed there was a lot more to his system than just stim, stim, positive, in devloping a dog through all phases for the competition. Your's or your teacher's version isn't necessarily Bellon's. I think you can understand it if you trained with him or if he has written about it. So I looked for anything he himself has said about his training. Tim Saunders seems to know that he teaches the behavior with a prong collar and then goes to the e-collar which seems consistent with the Ellis article. That would be a big difference between what you do and what he does. As much as you try make it, this isn't about judging anyone's use of the e-collar and I really didn't think the thread was about Nepopo versions.

T

 

[Christopher Smith]

Bart Bellon Method...anyone know it well? I have only read about it online...

T this is not a "Bart Bellon Method". He might have his own tweeks but that don't make it "his" method. That's what makes his registering a trademark humorous. This type of training with ecollar work has been around a long time and comes from hunting dogs. I was personally introduced to it at the Dobbs Training Center over 15 years ago. I have trained all kinds of dogs using this type of collar work from pet to sport. It has it's advantages and disadvantages, just like every other type of training. And it has it's place. It has worked for me, and others that I know, to have successes.

 

[Terrasita Cuffie]

James said he tried the idea of nepopo. So what's the difference between James saying he tried the idea and everyone else saying they use nepopo - save for the fact that it didn't work for James which fits better for your argument, so I guess you give him more credence. Kind of like using a quote from a 10 year old Bart Bellon interview. Might not be an accurate representation of the way he trains today, but what the hell, it fits your agenda so why not use it, right?

Really funny stuff! Unbelievably funny, actually.
:lol:

I haven't been able to date the article any earlier than 2009 and can't find the PCM magazine. It does make me curious that when he did all his winning and if it pre-dated NePoPo but haven't really looked at that yet. As for James, he's the only that added details on how the dog perceived it and how it worked in the trial setting over time. It does seem like the collar is the motivator and the positive part is easily forgotten. As for argument, I don't have an argument against Bellon's system. People sell stuff all the time but you don't know what they do in the privacy of their own four walls. Unless you are part of his training group, read his writings or worked dog with him in a seminar, I don't know that you can know how he trains. There are other discussions out there regarding the NePoPo system and part of that is that it can break the dog. You keep coming up with your agendas of turning this into a positive vs. compulsion or no e-collar thing. You can't handle how he says he trains in that article is the real issue and you don't think it supports your agenda. I don't have an agenda. Anyone can decide to change their training. I certainly have and I'm not a pure anything. I have certain preferences and will see those through first but sometimes you have to go a different route with a particular dog.

T

 

[Terrasita Cuffie]

T this is not a "Bart Bellon Method". He might have his own tweeks but that don't make it "his" method. That's what makes his registering a trademark humorous. This type of training with ecollar work has been around a long time and comes from hunting dogs. I was personally introduced to it at the Dobbs Training Center over 15 years ago. I have trained all kinds of dogs using this type of collar work from pet to sport. It has it's advantages and disadvantages, just like every other type of training. And it has it's place. It has worked for me, and others that I know, to have successes.

Chris, I thought the hunting folks were the e-collar pioneers and as David indicated, the military/LE was using it as well. As far as Bellon was concerned, I was assuming there was more to the system for building the sport stuff. I guess I was thinking in terms of a first I do this, then I do that sorta thing. As Ellis asked in the article, how did he get the behavior to begin with and then the duration, distance, etc. etc. As a gadget and for distance work, I do think the e-collars have come a long way.

T

 

[susan tuck]

I haven't been able to date the article any earlier than 2009 and can't find the PCM magazine. It does make me curious that when he did all his winning and if it pre-dated NePoPo but haven't really looked at that yet. As for James, he's the only that added details on how the dog perceived it and how it worked in the trial setting over time. It does seem like the collar is the motivator and the positive part is easily forgotten. As for argument, I don't have an argument against Bellon's system. People sell stuff all the time but you don't know what they do in the privacy of their own four walls. Unless you are part of his training group, read his writings or worked dog with him in a seminar, I don't know that you can know how he trains. There are other discussions out there regarding the NePoPo system and part of that is that it can break the dog. You keep coming up with your agendas of turning this into a positive vs. compulsion or no e-collar thing. You can't handle how he says he trains in that article is the real issue and you don't think it supports your agenda. I don't have an agenda. Anyone can decide to change their training. I certainly have and I'm not a pure anything. I have certain preferences and will see those through first but sometimes you have to go a different route with a particular dog.

T

Pretty easy to date the article since the 3 year old dog he mentioned was born in 1997.

James CLEARLY stated he tried the nepopo "idea" 7 years ago. In fact I bet you are the only person who read what James had to say throughout this thread and assumed he trained with Bart Bellon or attended a seminar of his.

As far as "other discussions out there" if you are talking about Internet rumors about his system "breaking dogs"....show me the money Terrisita, show me the dogs because all I hear is a bunch of Internet bullshit chatter - WHERE'S THE BEEF???

ANY training method or tool can be used incorrectly and to the detriment of the dog. AND????

Nobody here or anywhere else said there is a one size fits all method of dog training. Pretty sure that's understood by everyone in this group, since that's pretty basic stuff.

And you're full of shit Terrisita. I haven't tried to turn this into a compulsion vs positive argument.


Oh and by the way, I also never said I don't train with a pinch collar. In fact I do, many tools in my tool box. Stop making assumptions about people you don't know.

 

[Terrasita Cuffie]

Pretty easy to date the article since the 3 year old dog he mentioned was born in 1997.

James CLEARLY stated he tried the nepopo idea 7 years ago. He was clear about that. In fact I bet you are the only person who read what James had to say throughout this thread and assumed he trained with Bart Bellon or attended a seminar of his.

As far as "other discussions out there" if you are talking about Internet rumors about his system "breaking dogs"....show me the money Terrisita, show me the dogs because all I hear is a bunch of Internet bullshit chatter - WHERE'S THE BEEF???

ANY training method or tool can be used incorrectly and to the detriment of the dog. AND????

Nobody here or anywhere else said there is a one size fits all method of dog training. Pretty sure that's understood by everyone in this group, since that's pretty basic stuff.

And you're full of shit Terrisita. I haven't tried to turn this into a compulsion vs positive argument.


Oh and by the way, I also never said I don't train with a pinch collar. In fact I do, many tools in my tool box. Stop making assumptions about people you don't know.

You just get deeper and deeper in the mire don't you. You said, if the the dog he was talking about in the article was Zodt, then the article was aged. Once again, you didn't seem to KNOW. That raised another issue. Did NePoPO put him on the podium or somthing else. Do you know? You do protest a bit much don't you. Who cares what you train with. This is about Bellon remember. You're the ones with the assumptions and couldn't answer the questions that were asked. Now, there's a pinch collar. You might be getting closer to NePoPo. Is that what you want? You can't have a discussion without claiming purely positive or we all know Terrasita and Peter don't like e-collars, yada, yada, yada. Get over it. This isn't about you and Bellon doesn't respresent the entire e-collar universe. With all the twists and turns the thing that really stood out and got me to post in the first place was the idea of shaping with an e-collar and how escape training was used with that.

T

 

[Christopher Smith]

Chris, I thought the hunting folks were the e-collar pioneers and as David indicated, the military/LE was using it as well. As far as Bellon was concerned, I was assuming there was more to the system for building the sport stuff. I guess I was thinking in terms of a first I do this, then I do that sorta thing. As Ellis asked in the article, how did he get the behavior to begin with and then the duration, distance, etc. etc. As a gadget and for distance work, I do think the e-collars have come a long way.

T

T it would take a book to tell you first I do this then that all the way through the process.

If you really want to know what Bellon does give him a call or email him. He's very accessible and easy to talk to. Or better yet just go and train with him.

 

[Christopher Smith]

You just get deeper and deeper in the mire don't you. You said, if the the dog he was talking about in the article was Zodt, then the article was aged. Once again, you didn't seem to KNOW.

Well I do know. That article was written in 1999 or 2000.

 

[Terrasita Cuffie]

T it would take a book to tell you first I do this then that all the way through the process.

If you really want to know what Bellon does give him a call or email him. He's very accessible and easy to talk to. Or better yet just go and train with him.

Hahahah, that would probably have saved us a few pages. It just sort of a general idea of the process. If one of the local clubs brought him in, I'd probably go spectate.

T

 

[susan tuck]

You just get deeper and deeper in the mire don't you. You said, if the the dog he was talking about in the article was Zodt, then the article was aged. Once again, you didn't seem to KNOW. That raised another issue. Did NePoPO put him on the podium or somthing else. Do you know? You do protest a bit much don't you. Who cares what you train with. This is about Bellon remember. You're the ones with the assumptions and couldn't answer the questions that were asked. Now, there's a pinch collar. You might be getting closer to NePoPo. Is that what you want? You can't have a discussion without claiming purely positive or we all know Terrasita and Peter don't like e-collars, yada, yada, yada. Get over it. This isn't about you and Bellon doesn't respresent the entire e-collar universe. With all the twists and turns the thing that really stood out and got me to post in the first place was the idea of shaping with an e-collar and how escape training was used with that.

T

Terrisita EVERYONE told you it was an old article!!! What is your problem? Do you think EVERYONE is making it up??

Who cares what I train with? Apparently YOU do because you brought it up, you ninny! Don't you even remember what you said? "Tim Saunders seems to know that he teaches the behavior with a prong collar and then goes to the e-collar which seems consistent with the Ellis article. that would be a big difference between what you do and what he does" What are you talking about "now there's a pinch collar"? I have always used pinch collars. YOU are the one who assumed I didn't, simply because I mentioned using motivational methods and ecollars. Don't believe me - I don't give a shit but you're making yourself look like a gigantic buffoon.

lol, lol I made an off the cuff remark about you and Peter not liking ecollars, and Connie corrected me as far as you go, but you can't let it go. Apparently that really chapped your hide, makes me wonder if it was closer to the truth than you want people to know, or maybe it's all you got.

And there you go again, getting pissy and putting words in other people's mouths, I never said this was about me and I never said Bart Bellon was the center of the ecollar universe, nor did I imply either of those things. That's a bad habit of yours, I'd work on that if I were you.