[Mike Schoonbrood]

Do you work your dog in muzzle?

How long do your muzzle attacks last? Do you let your dog hit a few times or does the dog maul the decoy once he's on the ground?

Would you do muzzle work with a dog used for Schutzhund/IPO?

Do you feel the muzzle really makes a dog feel like they are biting the man for real, or do you think the dog understands that all he is doing is punching the man?

If a dog attacks a decoy in muzzle, do you think this will mean the dog will bite a person for real?

With a muzzle, how do you know the dog would bite and hold on rather than just nip n back off over and over?

I've seen dogs who won't bite for real bite a hidden sleeve because they will bite a man with clothing but not bare skin because they don't understand that they are allowed to do that, this problem would be alleviated by some real-world bites, but in this dogs mind, without those bites, he is fixated on some type of protective material on the human, bite suits, sweaters with a hidden sleeve under them etc. How would you solve this problem?

 

[Lou Castle]

Do you work your dog in muzzle?

Yes.

How long do your muzzle attacks last? Do you let your dog hit a few times or does the dog maul the decoy once he's on the ground?

Usually they're fairly short, 5-10 seconds. But sometimes we make them much longer so that the dog doesn't get conditioned that all of his fights are short ones. I wan the dog to stay with the decoy rather than in and out.

Do you feel the muzzle really makes a dog feel like they are biting the man for real, or do you think the dog understands that all he is doing is punching the man?

I can hear the dog's teeth clacking inside the muzzle every time he hits the decoy. I think he thinks he's biting.

If a dog attacks a decoy in muzzle, do you think this will mean the dog will bite a person for real?

Yes, if it's done by first desensitizing the dog to the muzzle. If he regards it as just another piece of training equipment it may not.

With a muzzle, how do you know the dog would bite and hold on rather than just nip n back off over and over?

This is trained beforehand with the sleeve and the suit.

I've seen dogs who won't bite for real bite a hidden sleeve because they will bite a man with clothing but not bare skin because they don't understand that they are allowed to do that, this problem would be alleviated by some real-world bites, but in this dogs mind, without those bites, he is fixated on some type of protective material on the human, bite suits, sweaters with a hidden sleeve under them etc. How would you solve this problem?

Ummm, with a muzzle? LOL

 

[Andres Martin]

Do you work your dog in muzzle? YES. BUT NO BITEWORK YET (18 MONTHS OLD).

How long do your muzzle attacks last? Do you let your dog hit a few times or does the dog maul the decoy once he's on the ground? DEPENDS ON THE DOG, BUT START SHORT AS PER LOU'S POST.

Would you do muzzle work with a dog used for Schutzhund/IPO? WHY NOT. THE MOST THAT CAN HAPPEN IS THE DOG WILL WANT TO GET THE DECOY WHERE IT COUNTS!

Do you feel the muzzle really makes a dog feel like they are biting the man for real, or do you think the dog understands that all he is doing is punching the man? DEPENDS ON HOW YOU CONDITION YOUR DOG. MUZZLE FIGHTING SHOULD BE A "ONCE IN A BLUE MOON" ACTIVITY ANYWAY, SAY ONE MUZZLE FIGHT TO 30 WALKS, OBEDIENCE ROUTINES, CRATE TIME IN MUZZLE.

If a dog attacks a decoy in muzzle, do you think this will mean the dog will bite a person for real? YOU'LL KNOW IF YOU'RE LOOKING CAREFULLY AT THE DOG.

With a muzzle, how do you know the dog would bite and hold on rather than just nip n back off over and over? THE DOG WILL BACK OFF...OR NOT!

I've seen dogs who won't bite for real bite a hidden sleeve because they will bite a man with clothing but not bare skin because they don't understand that they are allowed to do that, this problem would be alleviated by some real-world bites, but in this dogs mind, without those bites, he is fixated on some type of protective material on the human, bite suits, sweaters with a hidden sleeve under them etc. How would you solve this problem? MUZZLE FIGHT A GUY IN JUST SHORTS. FIND SOME GIRLS TOO, OTHERWISE YOUR DOG MAY JUST GET CONDITIONED TO GUYS...AND THERE ARE SOME MEAN WOMEN OUT THERE! BE CAREFUL!

 

[David Frost]

Do you work your dog in muzzle?

Yes.

How long do your muzzle attacks last? Do you let your dog hit a few times or does the dog maul the decoy once he's on the ground?

Usually short periods of up to 20 seconds. I've had the decoy act like he was trying to pin the dog once he was down.

Would you do muzzle work with a dog used for Schutzhund/IPO?

NOt enough experience for me to answer.

Do you feel the muzzle really makes a dog feel like they are biting the man for real, or do you think the dog understands that all he is doing is punching the man?

I think you can get a real opportunity to observe whether or not the dog would bite for real. Based on the intensity the dog engages the decoy, you can make several observations.

If a dog attacks a decoy in muzzle, do you think this will mean the dog will bite a person for real? See previous answer.

With a muzzle, how do you know the dog would bite and hold on rather than just nip n back off over and over? The conclusion is made on how the dog engages the decoy. Observing the dogs behavior as he is attacking.


DFrost

 

[Jerry Lyda]

Andres, where do I find the girls that will take the muzzle attacks with just shorts on?????? :lol:

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Andres, where do I find the girls that will take the muzzle attacks with just shorts on?????? :lol:

You may have to get one of the new aprons with
implants.

 

[Andres Martin]

I don't think it's a matter of where, but rather how much. :lol: :lol:

Connie...a test of your creativity: name the web site that carries those aprons. :lol:

 

[Connie Sutherland]

I don't think it's a matter of where, but rather how much. :lol: :lol:

Connie...a test of your creativity: name the web site that carries those aprons. :lol:

Well, that depends. If you mean a version that a dog
will believe, I'm stumped.

If not, then here: http://www.chocolatefantasies.com/cookshop.htm

Now if you meant one that Jerry would believe, I'm afraid I
don't know him well enough. :lol:

 

[Connie Sutherland]

I don't think it's a matter of where, but rather how much. :lol: :lol:

Connie...a test of your creativity: name the web site that carries those aprons. :lol:

Well, that depends. If you mean a version that a dog
will believe, I'm stumped.

If not, then here: http://www.chocolatefantasies.com/cookshop.htm

Now if you meant one that Jerry would believe, I'm afraid I
don't know him well enough. :lol:

I'd probably go with the

   "French Maid Apron - $10.50

   Naughty maid's apron with realistic breasts.  What a
great surprise for your dinner guests!  Vinyl apron with
soft feeling beasts."

Note that it does say "beasts" on the ad. So there ya go. Beasts
AND breasts.

 

[Gregg Tawney]

Okay......Here is a question. What drive do you guys work your dogs in when you are working muzzle?

I have two techniques. One technique works the dog in prey which is the traditional method and another works the dog in social aggression which is less traditional.

Does anyone do anything differently other than running away or back and forth?

 

[Reinier Geel]

Gregg, question for you, how do you know which drive the dog is in, and how do you switch between them???? :?:

 

[Tim Martens]

i would also like to hear from selena. i have been told that the dutch use very little or no muzzle work at all. my dog has only done maybe one or two sessions of muzzle work and he seems to have no problems biting a man...

 

[Lou Castle]

my dog has only done maybe one or two sessions of muzzle work and he seems to have no problems biting a man...

Tim did you use any predictors before his first bite?

 

[Andres Martin]

I have not worked my current dog in muzzle FOR BITING yet, but I also have to say, I have never trained bitework for any of MY dogs using prey (moving around and frustrating bites).

My first social aggression muzzle bites are very short...after a social aggression trigger...and the decoy submits in pain. And then I gradually move up the flag pole even to the decoy alpha rolling the dog, kicking the dog, etc.

At the end however, the dog ALWAYS wins.

 

[Gregg Tawney]

Gregg, question for you, how do you know which drive the dog is in, and how do you switch between them???? :?:

I work the muzzle two different ways. Like most, I start the dog on lead and I work try to work the dog either in fight(defense) and/or prey. When the dog engages in the muzzle I act as if he is killing me. The dog leaves the session with me on the ground and the dog being dragged off the field.

I have also used it for social aggression. Rank (I am not talking about Tim's socks 8) ) I start out with a dog that is very neutral in the muzzle. I hold his leash and start by sitting next to him and simply invading his space. Over a period of time I slowly begin to try to dominate the dog. When the dog shows aggression and tells me that I have gone too far then I submit to him gradually. If done properly, the dog will be stadning over top of me at the end and as I try to get up he postures over me. If I try to raise above him or dominate him in anyway, he will lay into me which will cause me to submit again.

I am curious if anyone else has used the muzzle in the fashion?

 

[Andres Martin]

Over a period of time I slowly begin to try to dominate the dog. When the dog shows aggression and tells me that I have gone too far then I submit to him gradually. If done properly, the dog will be stadning over top of me at the end and as I try to get up he postures over me. If I try to raise above him or dominate him in anyway, he will lay into me which will cause me to submit again.

I've never done that. Are you initially standing in a neutral way next to the dog? What are your expected results (from a dogs perspective)? How do they translate onto practical scenarios?

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

i would also like to hear from selena. i have been told that the dutch use very little or no muzzle work at all. my dog has only done maybe one or two sessions of muzzle work and he seems to have no problems biting a man...

So far I know, it is done very seldom. Certainly not a regular trainingstechnique. We did it once with Spike, just for fun, 18 mo ago.

 

[Gregg Tawney]

Initially, I am sitting next to the dog on the ground with the leash in hand. I then slowly move into dominant positions. I try to give him dominant body postures and "T" up on him. In the beginning when the dog growls, I back off. Each time I back off the dog becomes more confident. Eventually the growls become more active aggression as I become more persistant. This is a very gradual thing. And can take several sessions depending on the dog. Again, not for someone just getting into dog training.

What this does for me is two things. One, the dog learns to win in another drive. He learns to dominate me. The concept is that when another human on the street comes over top of him or bear hugs him in a dominant manner, that he can handle this type of confrontation. The second thing it does for me is that it conditions him to channel into fight a little easier when we use the muzzle on the field or in an area search. He is ready for a fight. In a search he finds the decoy laying down and immediately goes in and anticipates the fight because it is the same picture that he saw when he was kicking the decoys butt on the ground earlier. He goes into bite. The decoy reacts aggressive and a fight ensues. The dog is already confident in his abilities. In his mind he has already dominated people on the ground. I have already shown him gradually that he can win in a ground fight.

In a nutshell, thats the theory behind it.

 

[Andres Martin]

Interesting supplementary exercise...thanks.

 

[Andres Martin]

Hey Gregg,

What´s the handler doing during the process?