[Woody Taylor]

I've developed an unhealthy obsession with types of collars and the nature of the corrections they administer. I think everybody (whether they use chokes or not) uses that German study about the autopsied GSDs and the relative neck damage of choked dogs versus prong dogs...I have never seen a scientific interpretation of that study, only a random anedotal reference, which bugs me to no end. I hate ambiguity on scientific claims.

Moreover, I am not a fan of dead ring prong corrections because I absolutely believe that a prong correction on the live and dead rings is a different type of correction entirely...much more force on the neck, and a different sensation for the dog, which generally undermines the point of a prong collar (to me, anyways...which is to give a correction with less lateral force [but more constrictive force] which mimics the correction a dog got from mom as a puppy).

So what to do? Luckily I work around technologists way smarter than me. I was sharing this with a guy this morning--my unhealthy irritation with getting real data around collar and prong differences--and gave him corrections to prove my point (which I have to admit amused me greatly). He works a lot on shock (like, instantaneous force generated from things being dropped on floors, etc.) I think he can help me.

Hopefully, and shortly, we're gonna get a piece of PVC or something and attach a few accelerometers on th end of it (approximate a dog's neck). I'll attach (in different tests) typical choke, fursaver, dead prong, and live prong to a leash attached to a small weight which will be dropped at least ten times from a consistent height. We'll measure the acceleration and extrapolate force generated, I'll analyze the results statistically.

I'm not sure how we'll measure constrictive force yet (e.g., live prong relative force around the neck). But again, I work with people smarter than me. :lol: I create technical problems they solve (kind of my job description, now that I think about it).

So perhaps this will work and we'll get some quantitative data to back up our own unchangeable opinions :lol:. For now, any thoughts on how to do this test consistently, improve it, etc. would be appreciated.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

I am very interested in this.

The "German study," referred to over and over ad infinitum, is nowhere to be found. If someone can point me to the actual study, as opposed to anecdotal remarks about it, I'll be very grateful. I have spent hours online and at the U.C. library looking for that actual study (and not the talks "about" the study).

The comments make sense to me, but it bugs me too that the study itself seems not to have been done.

 

[Woody Taylor]

The comments make sense to me, but it bugs me too that the study itself seems not to have been done.

Intuitively, I think it's easy to see corrective differences...I was actually surprised at the correction I gave myself yesterday with the new fursaver I got, those big links hit bone hard...but there's a lot of nuance to consider. I think we'll be okay (assuming we do this) measuring straight force generated. The compressive force and effects of a live pinch, around the neck itself, will be harder to capture. The SUM of the force around the neck on a live pinch should be the difference of the sum of the lateral force between dead and live (overall force will be conserved) but that actually points of force on the prong...well, my head hurts so I'll stop. :lol:

 

[Jerry Lyda]

Good for you Woody. Can't wait to see how this turns out.

 

[Woody Taylor]

Good for you Woody. Can't wait to see how this turns out.

We'll see. This is some midnight requisitions stuff, definitely not getting direction from my mgmt to do this study. :wink: If nothing else I got to give someone a prong correction for free already. :lol:

 

[Connie Sutherland]

....If nothing else I got to give someone a prong correction for free already. :lol:

Ah .... benefits already!

 

[Woody Taylor]

....If nothing else I got to give someone a prong correction for free already. :lol:

Ah .... benefits already!

Not as good as my previously-described "neck blood pressure experiment" in high school, but I'm corporate now. I didn't sell out, I bought in.

 

[Bob Scott]

DAMN Woody! Just put the collar on and use it! :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:
In all seriousness, I ruined a really good dog some years ago with the old time choke collar. Rocky was the #1 ranked Kerry blue Terrier in AKC obedience, 1982. Never went below 94-95, never flunked me in the ring.
My heavy handed training of that era wound up messing up his neck. It only went out on 2 occasions going over a jump, but that was enough for me to retire him.
With the motivational training I do now I STILL have to resist the urge to yank and crank. That's why the TD took my leash away early in Thunder's training.

 

[Debbie High]

Thank goodness I'm not the only one with OCD about tools for correction. I have to always try things out on myself(my husband won't cooperate :lol: ) before I feel comfortable about using it on one of my dogs....not just once either, every few weeks I have to check it out again. For awhile my obsession was having the e-collar too tight. I finally decided that as long as the dogs eyes aren't bugged out it's okay!!!!

It will be interesting to see your results. Can't wait!

Debbie

 

[Nancy Jocoy]

Woody, could you not use a strain gauge to meaure constrictive force? They are used to measure weight in electronic balances and what is weight but gravitational force applied to mass? The challenge would be in the response speed.

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Of course you could just learn how to train a dog instead of wasting time with this. :twisted:

 

[Guest]

Geez Woody; you are SUCH a hippie :lol: ! Just put the damn collar on! Science, schmience!

I'm w/Connie on the "German study"; it's not that I don't believe in the "conclusions," I just think that someone was trying to make a point one day and fudged a bit...and cited a "study."

On dead rings and prongs: I,for one, don't use it as a corrective collar when it's on both rings; I merely use it for guidance, like in agility/climbing type situations. Except for some serious aggression management, I hardly ever use the prong for corrections anymore. It's an invaluable tool for showing the dog what you want, however. JMO.

 

[Woody Taylor]

Of course you could just learn how to train a dog instead of wasting time with this. :twisted:

Getting a lot of sun on that tin shanty out in the backwoods these days, huh? :twisted:

 

[Greg Long]

I cant prove anything but I have been told that in the past prong collars werent designed the same as they are today and were never meant to be a pinch collar.Im not sure about that but I never liked the results I got from using the live ring.I get much better results with the deadring and thats the way I always use it now.
I sure dont care for a choke collar.I have heard the study in question referred to many times.Science is only an educated guess anyway.

Perhaps we should poll the dogs.

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

I don't like chokers for correcting a dog with a pop, but I have seen the value for chokers in situations where a prong will just fire up the dog and you are trying to correct a behavior with a calm lifting up of the dog. I don't like metal chokers, I like the nylon ones.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

..... Perhaps we should poll the dogs.

Woody? Can you set that up?

 

[Woody Taylor]

So, we hooked up the accelerometer today, and we're trying to make the experiment consistent and repeatable (I will have a control along with the collar types for comparison). My wrist is neither consistent nor repeatable...having two ball peen hammers on a 4-foot lead dead-drop down and yank a nylon choke or fur saver to generate about 60 G's of shock on my wrist is hard to maintain consistently...arms get tired, particularly when they think about the prong portion of the test.

So we need a new neck. The neck has to support nylon choke, fur saver, prong on live ring (i.e., it has to support that "give").

Right now I'm leaning towards PVC piping with a nice fat steak wrapped around it. Or something like that.

Science marches on, please let me know your thoughts.

 

[Tim Martens]

i'm not sure what you're trying to do with this experiment woody. if you're trying to measure the acceleration of the constriction, i think even if you get different results, the end conclusion will still be flawed. acceleration, in this case, should largely be effected by friction. a choke has only one point of friction and a prong has two. so in theory, given equal force, the choke correction should accelerate faster. so again, in theory, with force equallying mass X accelaration, the choke should give more force if the mass used (the hammers) is the same.

but this does not tell the whole story. the whole choke vs prong debate hinges on the prong distributing the force over a larger area than the choke. so to be a true test of potential damage from both, you'd have to have some sort of circular mechanism to measure pressure in lbs/sq. inch. i think what you'd see is the choke giving more pressure in a much more localized manner and the prong with less pressure over a greater area.

just thinking more about it, acceleration is change in distance over time. the choke has a much greater distance to travel before the correction stops so the distance will be greater, but so will the time. i'd be curious to see if the accelaration from start to finish is constant on the choke...

 

[Andres Martin]

I think you'll get double the pressure expressed in lbs/sq. in. for the prong and choke, if the prong is on the live ring, because of the "pulley" effect of the chain working on two sides, vs the regular choke, which only works on one. Obviously, the contact areas on the neck for each type are different, but if you make them equivalent mathematically (quadratic function), I think the prong should be roughly double the pressure. Furthermore, I think you should take into account the type of link, as a fursaver will have (I think) higher drag, than a small-linked choke style collar.
Also, your experiment will have to take into account the direction from which "the pull" is coming from, because it can either be quite direct (if a regular choke is placed more towards the left of a dog's neck, e.g.), or quite indirect if the choke is placed correctly. The first will exercise direct pressure, the second will tighten all the way around.
Lbs/sq. in. for the dead rings should be pretty straight forward.
Interesting...FROM A PURELY ACADEMIC perspective...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Prediction: WAY, WAY, WAY more lbs/sq. in from the prongs. Pssst...why do you think dogs react more to it? The pressure is not over a larger area...it's over a MUCH smaller area.

 

[Bob Scott]

Sounds like a really cool way to tenderize steaks. :wink: