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A friend of mine wanted me to post this pic of his new pup, Doug.
 

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I really hate being nice but..............cooooooool! :lol: :eek: :p :D


Greg
 

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Greg Long said:
I really hate being nice but..............cooooooool! :lol: :eek: :p :D


Greg
Yes, very. Is that common? I know very litttle about HHs, I did not realize they came in "PITA to groom" versions as well.
 

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Generally working dutchies are shorthair, the show dogs are longhair, but if thats the pup I'm thinking of, then that pup is out of working lines with some relation to my pup... n either he's a fluke longhair or from a breeder who may aim for longhair working dutchies?
 

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Mike Schoonbrood said:
Generally working dutchies are shorthair, the show dogs are longhair, but if thats the pup I'm thinking of, then that pup is out of working lines with some relation to my pup... n either he's a fluke longhair or from a breeder who may aim for longhair working dutchies?
Wait..........are we saying that this puppy is the same breed as Lyka?
 

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Like the belgium shepherds has the dutch shepherd more than 1 official variaty. The belgian has 4 variaties shorthaired=mechelaar/malinois, roughhair= laekens and 2 variaties of longhair: black (groenendaler) and brownish (tervuerenaar). The dutch shepherd has 3 variaties: longhair, shorthair and roughhair. All are FCI recognized.

The workingdog you probably know are pedigreed or cross shorthairs.
 

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Connie Sutherland said:
Mike Schoonbrood said:
Generally working dutchies are shorthair, the show dogs are longhair, but if thats the pup I'm thinking of, then that pup is out of working lines with some relation to my pup... n either he's a fluke longhair or from a breeder who may aim for longhair working dutchies?
Wait..........are we saying that this puppy is the same breed as Lyka?
yes, longhairs usually do not biting work, more pets and herding and/or ob.
 

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Selena van Leeuwen said:
.........yes, longhairs usually do not biting work, more pets and herding and/or ob.
OH! Wow -- I really learned something today. :oops:

Beautiful beautiful puppy, too, as is Lyka..... just very different (to my untutored eye)!
 

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"Winnie" was a longhaired Dutchie female that was KNPV titled I believe.She produced some great working pups.You never know what is in the bloodline.
I know in GSDs the coat gene is recessive and really hard to breed completely out.Im a magnet for longhaired dogs for some reason.I have three of them.One Mal and 2 GSDs.

Greg
 

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Selena van Leeuwen said:
Like the belgium shepherds has the dutch shepherd more than 1 official variaty. The belgian has 4 variaties shorthaired=mechelaar/malinois, roughhair= laekens and 2 variaties of longhair: black (groenendaler) and brownish (tervuerenaar). The dutch shepherd has 3 variaties: longhair, shorthair and roughhair. All are FCI recognized.

The workingdog you probably know are pedigreed or cross shorthairs.
So on Groens and Tervs...and this freaky dog, I guess :lol: are you getting the same temperment and disposition as with the shorthaired ones? Or when you say show lines, do you mean what people usually mean by show lines...?
 

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Selena, thanks for posting that link. It's really something to see the pictures of the longhairs & down right trippy to see the pictures of the wirey coated dogs. We don't see them here in the states very often.
 

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Woody Taylor said:
Or when you say show lines, do you mean what people usually mean by show lines...?
Yes, I have never seen (not to say they don't exist, as you read, Greg has seen one) a working longhair dutchie -- basically, the people who breed for working ability breed shorthair dogs, if a longhair pup comes out of a litter then the coat obviously doesn't dictate working ability, but generally speaking, people who breed for long coated dutchies are pet/show breeders specifically breeding for the long coated type. From what I hear, they have even less working ability than the GSD showlines... but I've never been around a pet-bred longhaired dutchie so I couldn't tell you if that's true or not. Most working dutchies are crossed with Malinois to form the "KNPV lines", there are a few working lines out there that are FCI papered, my pup is from those lines, but there's alot of screwy things going on in Holland with the papers, so I have little doubt that there is malinois blood in my pup -- but many Mal/Dutchie cross litters you will end up with both dogs in one litter, the brindle dogs will be called X Hollandse Herders and the fawn dogs will be X Mechelse Herders... I haven't heard of any fawn pups being born in any of the litters produced by my pups breeder, so IF there is any Mal in her lines, it's not as strong a mix as the KNPV lines where often every other dog in the pedigree is a Mali. Dutch Shepherds are a complicated breed, I've read and read and read alot about them and looked at more pedigrees than I care to remember, n many pedigrees are also lied on so you never really know the true story. There's sites like Bloedlijnen.nl that let you "register" cross-breed working lines on the site, n many times on dogs from "purebred" dutch shepherd lines you will see "Unknown" written on the pedigree in many places after, sometimes, as early as the 3rd generation back, n those dogs could be golden retrievers for all you know! I've seen malinois that look like they MUST have been bred to GSD's, the black saddle being so pronounced that it seems impossible that there isn't a GSD in the lines somewhere at some point in time... then you read the pedigree n its supposedly 100% Malinois, or a Malinois X Dutchie cross, but no GSD to be seen. It's very simple to do something like that... lets say you own a kennel with 2 german shepherds and a poodle -- you could breed the german shepherd bitch to the poodle, then register the pups with AKC n tell AKC the father is your male GSD... now, with a cross like that it's gonna be pretty damn clear that the pups aren't purebred LOL, but dutchies, mal's and gsd's are all pretty close, especially the physical structure on mal's and dutchies. I do however see a difference between Lÿka and every mal pup I have ever seen, she has always been cat-like, long legs n very lean, whereas every mal puppy of equal age that I've ever seen is more GSD-like, kinda pudgy n fatter... I'm not sure what that means, but it would be my inexperienced guess that this is because dutchies and mals are seperate breeds, n my pup is more dutchie-like than mal-like, so either there is NO mal in the lines (doubtful) or there is very little or very far up in the pedigree to where she has more dutchie-like characteristics than mal-puppy characteristics.

Like I said, the breed is complicated -- the best thing to do is just find a breeder who produces the type of dogs you like and just accept whatever is on the pedigree you're given... as long as the dog is good and you know the last few generations of dogs and their progeny, it doesn't really matter if they mixed a cockerspaniel and a pug in there 10 generations back LOL.
 

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Woody Taylor said:
Selena van Leeuwen said:
Like the belgium shepherds has the dutch shepherd more than 1 official variaty. The belgian has 4 variaties shorthaired=mechelaar/malinois, roughhair= laekens and 2 variaties of longhair: black (groenendaler) and brownish (tervuerenaar). The dutch shepherd has 3 variaties: longhair, shorthair and roughhair. All are FCI recognized.

The workingdog you probably know are pedigreed or cross shorthairs.
So on Groens and Tervs...and this freaky dog, I guess :lol: are you getting the same temperment and disposition as with the shorthaired ones? Or when you say show lines, do you mean what people usually mean by show lines...?
More showline in the usually meanning of the word. The breeders specialized in long and roughairs usually do more shows than work.

Although some terv could be born out of mal parents (till 10 yrs back you could intervariaty breed without a problem, so it is possible you´ve a longhair out of 2 shorthairs). And than it could be a could workingdog.

I know 1 laekens who do IPO(sch). Look at this site voor laekense:
http://www.laekenseherder.nl/ (also in english) and her weblog
http://laekenseherders.web-log.nl/

For what about dutch dutchies it´s generally true what Mike S. wrote, altough I know a lot about them :wink:
 

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Most working dutchies are crossed with Malinois to form the "KNPV lines", there are a few working lines out there that are FCI papered, my pup is from those lines, but there's alot of screwy things going on in Holland with the papers, so I have little doubt that there is malinois blood in my pup -- but many Mal/Dutchie cross litters you will end up with both dogs in one litter, the brindle dogs will be called X Hollandse Herders and the fawn dogs will be X Mechelse Herders... I haven't heard of any fawn pups being born in any of the litters produced by my pups breeder, so IF there is any Mal in her lines, it's not as strong a mix as the KNPV lines where often every other dog in the pedigree is a Mali. Dutch Shepherds are a complicated breed, I've read and read and read alot about them and looked at more pedigrees than I care to remember, n many pedigrees are also lied on so you never really know the true story. There's sites like Bloedlijnen.nl that let you "register" cross-breed working lines on the site, n many times on dogs from "purebred" dutch shepherd lines you will see "Unknown" written on the pedigree in many places after, sometimes, as early as the 3rd generation back, n those dogs could be golden retrievers for all you know! I've seen malinois that look like they MUST have been bred to GSD's, the black saddle being so pronounced that it seems impossible that there isn't a GSD in the lines somewhere at some point in time... then you read the pedigree n its supposedly 100% Malinois, or a Malinois X Dutchie cross, but no GSD to be seen. It's very simple to do something like that... lets say you own a kennel with 2 german shepherds and a poodle -- you could breed the german shepherd bitch to the poodle, then register the pups with AKC n tell AKC the father is your male GSD... now, with a cross like that it's gonna be pretty damn clear that the pups aren't purebred LOL, but dutchies, mal's and gsd's are all pretty close, especially the physical structure on mal's and dutchies.

Like I said, the breed is complicated -- the best thing to do is just find a breeder who produces the type of dogs you like and just accept whatever is on the pedigree you're given... as long as the dog is good and you know the last few generations of dogs and their progeny, it doesn't really matter if they mixed a cockerspaniel and a pug in there 10 generations back LOL.

May I drag this thread kickin and screaming into the present?

Is this crossing true of only KNPV or is it what makes KNPV different? Is this something that's just common in europe or just KNPV? Cause heck this could end the entire importing debate crossing things is what us americans do best (j/k):razz:

Not that coat type or color determines working ability but something I was curious about was seeing alot of Mals that move from the a-typical fawn w/ black mask into the darker hues and the closest dog that comes to mind are Eherts GSD's coloration. Is this crossing where in the mike ellis KNPV breakdown vid he said KNPV is known for their larger boned dogs? Ok so now where does this rumor about APBT blood being mixed in to the Hollander come from? Is it just cause they are brindled?
 

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May I drag this thread kickin and screaming into the present?
I believe you just did.

Is this crossing true of only KNPV or is it what makes KNPV different?
It's what makes KNPV different. The dogs bred from KNPV lines are now essentially their own breed. If you breed a French line Malinois to a Dutch KNPV line Malinois, it is different than breeding two KNPV Malinois together.

Think of it similar to developing a new breed yourself. Lets say you want to create a breed called The Mighty Hammel, and to create this breed you want to use a Doberman and a Pitbull, and your goal is to create a dog that will climb a tree better than any other dog in the world. So you breed 20 generations of these Doberman/Pitbull crosses, each generation only breeding the dog that has the exact tree-climbing traits that you want. Some of the dogs look exactly like a variation of a doberman, and the other pups look like a variation of a pitbull, but regardless of what breed they look like, they all perform their job equally well. Generation after generation you breed only the best tree climbing dogs and finally produce dogs consistently that have the exact traits you set out to produce.

Now Joe Shmo walks along with his Pitbull and wants to breed his pitbull to your pitbull-looking dobe/pitbull cross. Your "Mighty Hammel" may look EXACTLY like a pitbull. When you breed the dog, the pups may look like pits, and they may look like dobe's, but their temperaments are exactly the same. But, if you breed to Joe Shmo's dog it is going to produce a very different type of dog.

Does that make sense? So essentially, the KNPV lines are a line of Dutchie and Malinois that have been bred for the very specific purpose and traits that make for a successful KNPV dog, with the character of the dog being considered first and foremost. The line was developed 100 years ago, and typically the dogs that are referred to as KNPV line dogs, are dogs that all come out of the same KNPV program, where all the dogs were bred for the traits that make them good at KNPV. So if you were to breed a KNPV line dog to a French Line dog, you produce a dog that is not entirely the type and temperament that the KNPV dogs were bred for, even though they are similar in appearance.

KNPV dogs were bred for their build, their size, their dominance, biting ability, drive, hardness, and a number of other traits that make them successful in KNPV. There are lots of KNPV lines that were all bred with the same goals in mind, using different dogs and a different way to achieve the same goal: success as a KNPV dog. So there are some lines that have little or no brindle in them, and are closer to a pure "Malinois," and there are some dogs that are mostly brindle Dutch Shepherds. These dogs are all crossed with each other, and whatever color the pups are is what the dog will be known as.

The flaw in my example of the dobe and pitbull is that these dogs do not resemble each other at all, whereas the Dutchie and Malinois are very similar structurally, so you can cross them easily, with the only variation being coat color.

Likewise, French Mal's were bred to excel in French Ring, but only papered dogs were used to create those lines. French line mal's are different to Belgian line mal's which are different to german schutzhund-bred mal's etc etc.


Is this something that's just common in europe or just KNPV?
Its the same concept as the Alaskan Husky. They are a mutt breed comprised of a number of other breeds that have been selected to produce dogs that look kinda like Siberian Husky's and make good sled dogs.


Ok so now where does this rumor about APBT blood being mixed in to the Hollander come from? Is it just cause they are brindled?
They were brindle first. The rumor about the pit's being mixed in is because of the hardness of bite and the shape of the head of some lines of Dutchie's. Shorter muzzle, thick pit-like heads with crushingly hard bites. I have no doubt that there is pit in there many many generations back, but because they are not papered dogs there is no record of it. It's possible that the guy that introduced pit's into his line of Dutchie's never told anyone, and therefore nobody would ever know. I don't believe all lines of Dutchie have pit in them though.
 

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Thanks Mike that made perfect sense.

still laughin about the new breed of "mighty hammels" however my new line is actually a scotch/irish X Czech/german cross - beautiful but very tempermental and has a grip like a orangutan sometimes she even speaks. She also climbs ladders like Chris McD's Dog
 

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