[Woody Taylor]

Money quote from Jeff last last night:

This is a (one of) fundamental reason why US dogs suck. It is a dog, not a fur kid, or any one of the amazingly stupid "family" type descriptions I see. It is basically livestock. If they are weak, well, you put them to sleep. Only the strong should make it and the weak weeded out. We (US) breed some of the most piss weak dogs I have ever seen, and then are proud of the fact that we are "Keeping this amazing breed working" or some inane BS like that. Makes me want to vomit.

God forbid they institute breed wardens in this country. No one would be allowed to breed.

This had me thinking all the way into work. How you all view working dogs affects everything about them: where they sleep, how much you miss them, what emotional bonds you let yourself form. On one scale, you have a guy like David Frost who has trained more dogs than I have seen in my entire life, on another, well, somebody like me. But the different viewpoints we have of the dogs--this is something that protects me, this is something that works for me, this is something that makes me happy...really tend to skew what's acceptable and what's not to us (cf. culling, table training, prongs, avoidance training, motivational training, whatever). There are people like Al Reanto who has a unique and really naturalistic way (at least to me) of viewing and training his PPDs, they you have a perspective like Jeff offers above (which, in and of itself, is just a viewpoint but has a lot of implications for what would and would not be tolerable to do to "better the breed.")

So...

1. Is a working dog a fur kid, a companion, a commodity, or livestock?

2. How do you think your viewpoint affects your training with your animal?

3. Do you think your viewpoints are sustainable/universal (i.e., if everybody acted like you, what would the breed look like?)

And stuff like this. I don't know, have fun with it, I'm having fun thinking about it...and again, I think this is one of those fundamental things that really affects how we interpret everything else about dog work.

Hopefully this will be interesting. Nothing I have posted here should be taken as a "shot" on one of your respective beliefs. I'm neutral. :wink:

 

[Stacia Porter]

While I have no problem with a true working dog not being integrated into a family situation, I do not view them as livestock. They have thoughts and feelings; dogs are far superior to cows.

I do not believe in indiscriminate breeding. I have an SV papered dog who will probably NEVER be bred -- unless of course I feel there's some exceptional reason to do it. There are plenty of dogs out there better at working than he is; those are those ones who ought to sire litters. Achilles hasn't proven himself yet, and I take on a "guilty until proven innocent" standpoint.

As for my own dogs: they are part of my family. They are pets first, working dogs second (and we do sport). They aren't allowed to sleep with me or get on my furniture, but they are my furkids. I love them, will mourn their deaths, and will always consider them a member of the family. I'm not sure how it affects their training; I consider a bite trained dog to be safer than the average pet. Until the Monumental Move we were training heavily in SchH; since January we've done nothing. If anything, sport has made our dog more suitable to cohabitate with my family.

 

[Bob Scott]

Although I'm not into the furkid thing, my dogs have always been a part of the family. Working terriers have been/are house dogs.
My GSD is always with me. Doesn't matter if it's training, working on a rehab house or simply going to the post office.
I think that has created a better bond, connection, or whatever you want to call it.
The're not my kids. I don't view them as kids. I don't treat them as kids. but I've sure as hell cried over the loss of each and every one of them.
Could be that I'm just a big wuss! :lol:

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

Except of my main **** kitten and my old IPO dog I don´t have pets.

The others are all working dogs, they´re treated differently from day 1 (at birth or when the came to live here). They´re kenneled, they´re totally free to do their own thing till they´re about 8mo-1 yr. The only thing they learn beforethat time is their name and "hier" (come). I potty train them and take them to different places. I am not a cute puppy lover..i like them with others or for my own till 7 weeks and after 8 mo.

I want them to be king of the world when I start working with them, independent, no puppy anymore (young dog), can take some pressure, and couldn´t be scared...

They aren´t really livestock to me, but certainly AREN´T a fur-child like- co-living in the house pets. They are working dogs...im strongly bonded (cause you couldnt train very well..), love them, sometimes hate them but just...working dogs

 

[David Frost]

Actually, I find that a very interesting question. As a trainer and manager of a good sized program (40+ dogs), I've found I am far removed from the attachment that handlers may have. I'm the one that has to be objective over whether or not a dog will make it through training, be retired or even euthanized. I've found that it's much easier for me to make the decision objectively because I'm not "attached" to the animal as far as a relationship. I often view the dogs we have as a piece of equipment (isn't that a sad note). If it's not working right, can I fix it. If I can fix it, do I need to worry about it "breaking" again. When a dog is ill, how much do I want to spend to get it well. As dogs begin to debilitate with age, when do I consider retiring them. Rarely are the decisions popular with the handler, but in reality what ever is done has to be for the good of the program. It's like making a decision on an automobile, if it's going to cost me more to maintain it, than it would to replace it, then I have to replace it. That's my perspective on working dogs. They are scheduled to work, it's not a matter of, well, we can do it another day. This didn't necessarily come easy for me. I didn't begin my career in canine as a trainer/manager, I was a handler for many years. Of course I thought the trainer/manager was a cold hearted SOB, but I can see now the decisions he was required to make.

DFrost

 

[Guest]

Jeff!!! :lol: If I just wait long enough, he says all the obnoxiously true things I want to say...but figure I piss people off enough as it is :twisted: . Hilarious!

I think there are certain words that embody what is wrong with "working dogs" today, and if "FUR-KID" doesn't epitomize it all, well, then I don't know what does. They're DOGS. It is unfair to them to treat them as if they're anything other than what they are. They, as DOGS, have their own specific needs, abilities, and qualities. Calling them "fur-kids" is insulting. They're not children with hair disorders. If they're viewed as such it's fairly certain that they (and their handlers) will never have the opportunity to experience how powerful and unique the human/canine bond can be...

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

It is the same for my husband David, he is manager/trainer/adminstrator of 15 dogs on a department.

As an example for my feelings, I recently placed a female in a home where she could be a pet and a securitydog. In return for 2 more litters with her. She was my little girl, but her KNPV work wasn´t good enough for my standard (circumstances before we had her, she´s a own bred dog). She´s better of there, than only be in a kennel here and be bred twice. I miss her, but I think her life is better for her now.

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Quote:dogs are far superior to cows.

In what way? I do not see this at all. More interesting maybe, but thats about it. Can't kill a dog and eat for 6 months. Dogs are nearly useless, except from the interesting viewpoint unless maybe they are goood working dogs. Most dogs waste air.

Quote:

The others are all working dogs, they´re treated differently from day 1 (at birth or when the came to live here). They´re kenneled, they´re totally free to do their own thing till they´re about 8mo-1 yr. The only thing they learn beforethat time is their name and "hier" (come). I potty train them and take them to different places. I am not a cute puppy lover..i like them with others or for my own till 7 weeks and after 8 mo.

I want them to be king of the world when I start working with them, independent, no puppy anymore (young dog), can take some pressure, and couldn´t be scared...

They aren´t really livestock to me, but certainly AREN´T a fur-child like- co-living in the house pets. They are working dogs...im strongly bonded (cause you couldnt train very well..), love them, sometimes hate them but just...working dogs


Notice the difference when you get overseas? Still wondering?



NOT PICKING ON YOU, but this is a common view point.

Quote:I do not believe in indiscriminate breeding. I have an SV papered dog who will probably NEVER be bred -- unless of course I feel there's some exceptional reason to do it. There are plenty of dogs out there better at working than he is; those are those ones who ought to sire litters. Achilles hasn't proven himself yet, and I take on a "guilty until proven innocent" standpoint.


Probably never be bred, SV papers, unless of course, blah blah blah.

I have never had a doubt about a stud dog raised by me. They are rediculously obvious.

Again, not slamming, but the view points are extremely common. I have heard them almost word for word like the quote posted above many many times.

 

[Kristen Cabe]

I had posted this under another thread, and I'm copying and pasting it here:

we seem to want to make our dogs family members and the dutch believe their dogs are dogs

It is a dog, not a fur kid, or any one of the amazingly stupid "family" type descriptions I see. It is basically livestock.

While I agree that dogs are dogs and should be treated as dogs and not furry humans, I disagree that dogs are on the same level as livestock. We spend a lot of time, effort, and money training our dogs; how many of you would do the same with a cow? (I'm not saying training a cow in SchH here :lol What would be the purpose/gain if you say you would?? (spend the time, money, & effort - not try to train a cow in SchH :roll

I'm sorry, but I can't see spending the money that we do on a dog; for the dog itself, vetting, transporting, training equipment, travelling to and from trials and training facilities, food, housing facilities, etc.; only to then say "it's just a dog" and treat it as we would cows, or sheep, etc. How many times have I heard you all refer to the importance of pack drive, and bonding with the dog, and wanting to feed only the best food to the dog, and the importance of positive rewards? Then you turn around and say "it's just a dog" and put it in the same category as animals being raised for slaughter? No. Sorry. Not buying it.

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Jenni, do you piss people off in real life, or just here in the ether world?

I find that people get pissed, but I can see that they won't say anything. I prefer the people that get pissed. At least they are interesting.

 

[Greg Long]

Dogs are unique from all other creatures.They are not livestock and they are not wolves.

Calling a dog a "furkid" disrespects both the dog and the children.They are dogs and they know they are not people.If you cant give a dog the respect he deserves then you shouldnt own one.

When you confuse dogs in this way you limit the capabilities of both the dog and of your own ability as a handler.Dogs are capable of performing tasks we as humans cannot.WE as humans are capable of doing things dogs cannot.There is a natural bond between dogs and man.By strenghtening this natural bond we can start to become a team and many things are possible that would not be otherwise."fur mommies" and "skinkids" weaken this relationship and do not reflect positively on you own level of common sense.JMO

Greg

 

[Woody Taylor]

So Jeff...just for the sake of discussion...you'd said in an earlier discussion (I thought) that you didn't breed because you didn't like culling...why is that? I apologize if you did NOT say that, by the way, I just thought I remembered that.

[all these posts in so short a time! Awesome, I figured this would be a good topic...]

And David...I don't think it's wrong (or "sad") at all for MWDs and PSDs to be viewed as equipment. They're used for entirely different purposes than anything else. Makes total sense to me that we would not give them the same "rights" or "sympathy" we'd give a pet, service companion, or sport dog. Reality is funny that way, IMHO.

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Cows are worth way more than dog Kristen. $$$ is king. Just because you paid a lot of money for a dog doesn't mean he is worth the amount paid. Cows you usually make money off of. Cows have personalities, and can be trained. No one wants to catch the cow in the courage test.

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Woody, here is a good way to see if you like culling. Find a new litter of puppies. select the biggest fattest ones. Now, simply twist the heads of the rest till you hear a slight snap. They go still at this point. Wrap them in newspaper and throw them in the dumpster. Still wish you asked such a question????? Couldn't be more obvious where the dislike comes from.

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

I treat my dogs according to their personality. Cujo's a big baby, Lÿka's a tough lil bitch. Their behavior dictates my response... I'm tough but fair, I would treat my kids much the same way as I treat my dogs, but obviously not exactly the same, however much I wish it were legal to crate kids, you just can't do that :lol: My dogs are here to stay till death do us part, I could never sell my own dog to someone. I would need to completely condition myself to sell a litter of puppies to not get attached to them, n I would do what Selena does -- keep the puppies located near me, I wouldn't feel comfortable sending one of my pups off to Utah and never hearing anything about them again. I used to update Cujo's breeder on how Cujo was doing, but he seems to have lost any of the enthusiasm or interest he showed when I first got Cujo... so I stopped updating them. I intend on keeping Lÿka's breeder up to date on how she's doing because I truly believe they care about what happens to their pups.

I was offered to handle a dog for my trainer, but I don't have the space to do so.... he's an awesome dog, if I wanted an adult GSD, I would buy that dog, but I know that if I start working with the dog I'll get attached n wanna keep him, n it'll cost me $5000 lol.

 

[Woody Taylor]

Woody, here is a good way to see if you like culling. Find a new litter of puppies. select the biggest fattest ones. Now, simply twist the heads of the rest till you hear a slight snap. They go still at this point. Wrap them in newspaper and throw them in the dumpster. Still wish you asked such a question????? Couldn't be more obvious where the dislike comes from.

It's just livestock, man. Are you one of those types that can buy packaged meat all day long and never kill the cow?

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

I have cracked cows in the head with a sledgehammer many times. Makes no difference to me, they are quite tasty. Dogs have no value this way.

Quote:Livestock: Domestic animals, such as cattle or horses, raised for use or for profit, especially on a farm; food animals; slaughter animals; also referred to as stock.

Connie posted this on the original thread. Pay close attention to the raised for use or for profit.

There are more dogs born for profit than anything else. They are livestock.

 

[Woody Taylor]

I have cracked cows in the head with a sledgehammer many times. Makes no difference to me, they are quite tasty. Dogs have no value this way.

Quote:Livestock: Domestic animals, such as cattle or horses, raised for use or for profit, especially on a farm; food animals; slaughter animals; also referred to as stock.

Connie posted this on the original thread. Pay close attention to the raised for use or for profit.

There are more dogs born for profit than anything else. They are livestock.

So you want to "better the breed' but prefer someone else do the less palatable stuff? You're paying for someone to cull.

Dog might not taste bad, I've never had it. Only carnivores I have had are bear, shark, alligator, snake (you too!). Bear jerky actually tastes like $hit to me and I think bear hunting is cowardly, but that's another point.

So are you saying that you like killing cows because you can eat them, or you simply don't like culling puppies because you (choose) not to eat them?

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

Jeff hate to dissapoint you, but there are also a lot of sportpeople who threat their dog the same..more IPO people though. Their main reason for having a dog is first a pet, and second to work/sport with them.

My only reason is working..that makes a heck of a difference.

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

How is it that I like killing cows???? Have you ever done the same? Or is this that retorical Woody thing were you live vicariously through those that do???? How did you manage to have children with this personality??? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: