Some months ago, my 93yr old father-in-law, who lives with us, had opend the door when the mailman was comming down the street.
I apologized to the mail man the next day and he said Pete just barked at him till he (mailman) put one foot on our lawn. then the mailman said "That crazy little MF looked like someone dropped a running chainsaw on your lawn."
Then he handed me the mail we didn't get the previous day.

 

Oh my mistake, I meant Syd Murray, not John Cyd, hard to remember names after a long time.

Edit; this dog was also checked out by John who used to screen and train dogs involved with OVERT before being sent to live with the Officer. Just so you know, she was not sent by me without checking her temperament first. John actually thought she was so sweet she stayed in his family home for a week with his children.

 

Bob, do you mean he ran off, or he went nuts on the mailman??

 

For me personally,a "good" dog is a pet and friend first.It is also a dog that will bite under certain circumstances.I dont like the term "PPD",never have.Because of the dogs I have and occasionally sell,the person that ends up with them has a big responsibility.The more training the dog has then more stable the dog is.It is the untrained dogs that I worry the most about.
I recently placed a young Czech male with a girl.This dog was not what I would look for as a "PPD" but she just wanted a good pet.He did have quite a bit of training however.I just found out he is being very protective of her when she was "play" fighting with a friend.She is able to tell the dog "its OK" and has good control.This dog bites very hard for a young dog.I dont worry about them at all.If this same dog didnt have the training he has now,the situation might have turned out badly.

 

Greg is great! Greg is great! Greg is great!

Wait! Why did I type that?

 

I disagree with Greg, the term PPD is exactly that to me. I want a dog to bite and fight when i or my wife need it, to give us time to get away or get a weapon, it's not complicated. If the animal won't do this , it's not a PPD. I was thinking about that "bluff dog" stuff and in my mind it can give someone a false sense of security, not good. And no, nobodys looking to get me but i do read the papers and watch the news and there's quite a few bad people out there doing home invasions and carjackings etc. , so having a dog that will really bite does add an extra layer of protection, JMO,

AL

 

I disagree with Greg, the term PPD is exactly that to me. I want a dog to bite and fight when i or my wife need it, to give us time to get away or get a weapon, it's not complicated. If the animal won't do this , it's not a PPD. I was thinking about that "bluff dog" stuff and in my mind it can give someone a false sense of security, not good. And no, nobodys looking to get me but i do read the papers and watch the news and there's quite a few bad people out there doing home invasions and carjackings etc. , so having a dog that will really bite does add an extra layer of protection, JMO,

AL

I finally found that PPD site where I read the three-tier terms of alarm, bluff, and PPD:
http://www.protectiondog.com/selfdefencedogs.htm

It also mentions, as Al does, the possibility of a false sense of security from a "bluff dog."

 

I disagree with Greg, the term PPD is exactly that to me. I want a dog to bite and fight when i or my wife need it, to give us time to get away or get a weapon, it's not complicated. If the animal won't do this , it's not a PPD. I was thinking about that "bluff dog" stuff and in my mind it can give someone a false sense of security, not good. And no, nobodys looking to get me but i do read the papers and watch the news and there's quite a few bad people out there doing home invasions and carjackings etc. , so having a dog that will really bite does add an extra layer of protection, JMO,

AL

I didnt make myself clear I guess.A "good" dog to me is a well trained PPD.That is,I want my dogs to be able to do that but that is not the reason for me having that type of dog.The term "PPD" gives some a false sense of security.If I truly believe my life is in danger and I cant handle the situation myself,then I want my dog to neutralize(read "kill") the threat but that is the very last resort.Why wouldnt you want a dog like that?As long as it is stable (and the training is really what stabilizes the bite).If you have one of these so called "protection" breeds then they may bite anyway when you dont want them to.
I dont like the idea of selling a person a dog and labling it a "personal protection dog".The protection part is just part of the package of a well trained dog from these strong working breeds.These PPDs should not be the first line of defense.They should be part of the big picture for a 'security conscious' minded individual.
Also I do not believe a person has to have a gun before they are able to buy a "PPD".Many people are more likely to shoot themselves or someone they love than an assailant.

 

Bluff dog=bite but won't fight.

I got one of those. Highly territorial, a little thin nerved, responds to threat with aggression, but the goal of the aggression is to drive the threat away, not dominate or fight it. Serves my purposes; she is crated when company is over. She is a little too edgy and suspicious to trust with people in the house.

I have seen her serious once, when she felt her 'boy' (my son) was in danger. When she went for the guy (provoked), there was no doubt in my mind she would have followed through. But that was the exception.

A dog that would kill a man? Spousal abuse is one of those areas that I feel a PPD would be an excellent idea; nothing like a serious maneater to keep hubby wifebeater/stalker off the property, along with a .45.

Or maybe a pack of PPD, to get rid of the evidence....Back to the original topic, I wonder if emotional stress (such as being stalked) would be an exclusion criteria for an ethical PPD vendor/trainer. Would stress affect your judgment? Could you send your dog to do its job, if its job is to drive ex-hubby away, by any means necessary?

I have no pratical experience in this at all. Ya'll can tear me up with your PPD dogs, if ya want. :lol:

 

<<Highly territorial, a little thin nerved, responds to threat with aggression, but the goal of the aggression is to drive the threat away, not dominate or fight it.>>

They can call it a bluff dog if they like, but let's call it what it is. That type of behavior is fear based, nothing more. I wouldn't think that would be a good PPD.

DFrost

 

Absolutley right, never said it wasn't.

I know she is fear-based, but most people don't. And she is under much better control than when I first got her. Lotta control and a lotta socialization. And no, I know she wouldn't be a PPD, far from it. She is a good doorbell though.

Seriously, for those that do train and sell these kind of dogs, what would be the exclusion criteria? Aside from the obvious; criminal record, drug dealer, what not. I would imagine selling a dog that had the potential to really hurt someone (not just bite, but fight) would expose a vendor to liability; how do you screen out the wackos? Or do wackos find their own nervy, fearful dogs, and train for their own ends?

Sorry if I am butting into a subject that I have no practical experience in. I know nothing about PPD and their training; I am just a Schutzhunder, with one good dog and a pack of pets. But I am curious.

 

Bob, now I finally get it, some things take me a while. Your dog wents nuts in the yard, so the mailman didn't go further, LOL.
Sorry took me a while. LOL

 

<<Highly territorial, a little thin nerved, responds to threat with aggression, but the goal of the aggression is to drive the threat away, not dominate or fight it.>>

They can call it a bluff dog if they like, but let's call it what it is. That type of behavior is fear based, nothing more. I wouldn't think that would be a good PPD.

DFrost

exactly. there really shouldn't be "levels" of PPD's. it either can, or cannot do the job. i'm reminded of an alarm call i was sent to. my partner and i arrive. the front of the house is secure. we go around to the backyard and there is this all black GSD barking his head off at us.....but from about 20 feet behind the fence. my partner walked away saying, "i guess it's ok. i'm not going in there." i knew if this dog was serious about biting us, it would be jumping all over the fence. so i walk in the yard and he continues barking his head off, but always maintaining a 20 or 30 foot distance. the house was secure and there was no break-in, but if i was a burglar with even a little dog knowledge, that dog is useless...

the flip side to that is another alarm i went to....i go to check the yard and these two little min pins are snarling, growling, jumping all over the fence praying that i go back there so they can shred my pants. i didn't check that yard...

 

After reading all the posts and looking back at mine, I can say what I think a good ppd should be like. Or what I would like it to be.
A dog who loves me and my family. a dog who does not lunge at neihbors fences when they come out. A dog who does not chase down children, a dog who does not bark/growl at people when crated (normal people visiting). A dog who does not bite because I am playfighting and laughing, A dog who does not bite and then back up barking and growling. A dog who does not just circle me barking at the bad guy.
My perfect dog would easily no the difference between danger or not, and/or be able to follow a command suggesting him/her to advance to a level of danger reaction. My perfect dog would not only bite, but hold the bite or bite again until I commanded "out". If I was unable to respond to command because of being incapacitate, I would want that dog to keep that person there, not send them away with barking/growling. A great dog will hold the person and keep them from further movement.
I know it's a great deal to ask of a dog, but that is my perfect dog. And they have to be large enough for me to touch their back/head to pat them, because I am only 5 foot 2 inches. And I like to pat my dogs a lot.

 

Liz, you wouldn't have trouble petting my JRT's head. He has a verticle jump that is higher then you are tall.
Well.....at 11yrs old, he's down to about 4 ft now. :lol: :wink:
Yes! He went ballistic in the yard but backed off when the mail carrier stepped back into the street.
He's well aware of his boundary lines and his yard belongs to him.

 

You can easily get this perfect PPD with a combination of good genetics and good training. :lol:

 

Well, I can't wait to get her. she will be large they say, and they sent me an email today asking If I could pick her up as SOON as possible. We had agreed on Tuesday, but I think they are hoping for Sunday (tomorrow). Apparantly she is now with the younger litter that came in and they don't like that too much. The kennel owner said that she is greeting her at the door every time. I just can't wait to get her home. Are the West German usually taller than the KNPV, DDR, East German, Czech lines??

 

Non-stressful barking-bluff dog

<<Highly>>

They can call it a bluff dog if they like, but let's call it what it is. That type of behavior is fear based, nothing more. I wouldn't think that would be a good PPD.

DFrost

A bluff doesn't have to be fear based. A great bluff dog can be trained that the barking at the "suspect" is a fun game. You can start with bringing out the defence in the dog and then you build the confidence so that the dog is playing a "game". Barking ferociously at the suspect becomes a fun game that does not negatively stress the dog.

When I took my 7 year old chow mix to "dog school" with me, we practiced aggitation and decoy work with her. For 2 days she wouldn't bark because she didn't understand why some idiot was dancing around in a funny suit trying to antagonize her - ie: she knew the person was not a real threat. When he tapped her toes with a stick, she got into the game and started to bark at him. She was having fun barking and we got her to stay in front of me and bark loudly, as she loves to bark for fun anyways. So she learned that strange people are fun to bark at and if I had kept up with it, I could have added a command and had a simple type of PP Dog. And most criminals will back away from a barking dog.

Simple type of PP Dog, no stress on the dog, she's great with kids and people and animals, super family dog, and if I wanted to, she could bark for protection.

I think that is the type of PP Dog that most families want/need anyways. The average person doesn't need a dog that will bite. Barking can be almost as effective for the average citizen. Plus the liability of an untrained "yard dog" is eliminated, so the dog can be a part of the family and protect his family as well. Less bitten children who accidently stick fingers through fences or from dogs who escape yards and run loose. Most happy, family dogs can make great barking bluff dogs and the dog just thinks it is a fun game.

Thoughts and comments?

 

Non-stressful barking-bluff dog

sorry, computer issues, deleting duplicate post

 

Non-stressful barking-bluff dog

<<Highly>>

They can call it a bluff dog if they like, but let's call it what it is. That type of behavior is fear based, nothing more. I wouldn't think that would be a good PPD.

DFrost

A bluff doesn't have to be fear based. A great bluff dog can be trained that the barking at the "suspect" is a fun game. You can start with bringing out the defence in the dog and then you build the confidence so that the dog is playing a "game". Barking ferociously at the suspect becomes a fun game that does not negatively stress the dog.

When I took my 7 year old chow mix to "dog school" with me, we practiced aggitation and decoy work with her. For 2 days she wouldn't bark because she didn't understand why some idiot was dancing around in a funny suit trying to antagonize her - ie: she knew the person was not a real threat. When he tapped her toes with a stick, she got into the game and started to bark at him. She was having fun barking and we got her to stay in front of me and bark loudly, as she loves to bark for fun anyways. So she learned that strange people are fun to bark at and if I had kept up with it, I could have added a command and had a simple type of PP Dog. And most criminals will back away from a barking dog.

Simple type of PP Dog, no stress on the dog, she's great with kids and people and animals, super family dog, and if I wanted to, she could bark for protection.

I think that is the type of PP Dog that most families want/need anyways. The average person doesn't need a dog that will bite. Barking can be almost as effective for the average citizen. Plus the liability of an untrained "yard dog" is eliminated, so the dog can be a part of the family and protect his family as well. Less bitten children who accidently stick fingers through fences or from dogs who escape yards and run loose. Most happy, family dogs can make great barking bluff dogs and the dog just thinks it is a fun game.

Thoughts and comments?