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Sarah, Stacia, Sue,

Yes, Sue, I agree that there was a big fad for a few decades that dictated bottle feeding (less "animalistic"!! Seriously!).

I'm not sure how it started. Do you guys think it was the new awareness of germs and the new "sterile" ideas about the nursery, etc.?

LLL kept me going when I would've quit if I had had to rely on my doctor or the nurses, and this was the late 60s.
 

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Connie Sutherland said:
Sarah, Stacia, Sue,

Yes, Sue, I agree that there was a big fad for a few decades that dictated bottle feeding (less "animalistic"!! Seriously!).

I'm not sure how it started. Do you guys think it was the new awareness of germs and the new "sterile" ideas about the nursery, etc.?

LLL kept me going when I would've quit if I had had to rely on my doctor or the nurses, and this was the late 60s.
Well part of the reason that bottle feeding became so dang popular is that doctors started touting it as the perfect food source for infants! Moms in the 50's actually were made to bring samples of their breastmilk to docs for "testing" and were told it was too rich, too blue, too fattening (the list goes on) and they "needed" to formula feed. Soon it became a status symbol of the rich: why breastfeed when you can buy a perfectly good food source? So then the poor started formula feeding.

Now more than 80% of American babies (and a good number of European) are bottlefed. Of those who are breastfed, most are only up to the 6 week mark. It is very rare to find a baby still breastfed after 6 months, and even rarer after 12 months (the biological norm is considered 2-3 years based on global studies of standard nursing lengths).

A lot of the flak I get about it now has to do with the "ick" factor: many women are grossed out by the thought of using part of their body as food. Still others ( more than you'd think) experienced sexual abuse and as a result have a problem breastfeeding (or with birthing for that matter). Other women have no clue how to breastfeed since they haven't had it done and being nervous mothers want to do what gthey know more about: formula.

The trick is education, education, education!!!! The more women know the more empowered they are. You can't make an informed decision with information...
 

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here in holland breastfeeding is heavily promoted. I think the first 6 wks-3 mo. 50-75% of the baby´s are breastfed. Mums if they have jobs, start again with working when the baby is about 3 mo. so then the formula feed percentage get a lot higher.

Also delivery at home is heavily promoted, actually only with a medical indication delivery is done in the hospital (without painkilling..)
 

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When I breastfed both of my daughters for a year (when they naturally weaned themselves) over 20 years ago, I faced challenges both from the doctors, because my absolutely healthy kids were not big and fat, and the community at large (stares etc.) The doctors were by far the biggest impediment.

I was ALWAYS discrete, but blew my top when someone at a gas station we stopped at during a trip (we were travelling and my kids went in car seats BEFORE they were required) came out to my car and told me I would either have to leave or take my child into their filthy bathroom. It is NOT like I was hangning out for all the world to see...I was in a corner of the lot under a tree in my vehicle.

It was so darned natural, I don't *get* the folks who find it to be such a burden -- we did make the choice for me to stay home with the kids until they started school and that certainly made it easier.....We were by no means wealthy but made sacrifices to do so (like I did not have a car and walked everywhere)

My own daughter breastfed her two girls as well for about the same time (the 2nd child weaned a bit earlier) and they have also been very very healthy. I was so proud of her because she has inverted nipples and had to work very hard to get the babies to latch on.
 

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Nancy Jocoy said:
When I breastfed both of my daughters for a year (when they naturally weaned themselves) over 20 years ago, I faced challenges both from the doctors, because my absolutely healthy kids were not big and fat, and the community at large (stares etc.) The doctors were by far the biggest impediment.

I was ALWAYS discrete, but blew my top when someone at a gas station we stopped at during a trip (we were travelling and my kids went in car seats BEFORE they were required) came out to my car and told me I would either have to leave or take my child into their filthy bathroom. It is NOT like I was hangning out for all the world to see...I was in a corner of the lot under a tree in my vehicle.

It was so darned natural, I don't *get* the folks who find it to be such a burden -- we did make the choice for me to stay home with the kids until they started school and that certainly made it easier.....We were by no means wealthy but made sacrifices to do so (like I did not have a car and walked everywhere)

My own daughter breastfed her two girls as well for about the same time (the 2nd child weaned a bit earlier) and they have also been very very healthy. I was so proud of her because she has inverted nipples and had to work very hard to get the babies to latch on.
Nancy,

I just want to say how awesome you and your daughter are! The stares and comments are still awful to this day. Luckily we now have laws to protect a mother's right to breastfeed in public and some states actually impose fines on those who ask a breastfeeding mother to either "cover up" or leave! It's a breakthrough.

Selena, Canada and most of Europe has similiar programs to what you're talking about and I really wish teh US had some provisions. The need to work is one of the #1 obstacles breastfeeding mothers face in this country. Mmost have to return to work withitn SIX weeks after thke birth! It's crazy. Some companies give 12 weeks, but that's still not nearly enough time. Germany, for instance, gives 3 years!!!
 

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I know this is your girls own little thing going here, but I just wanted to chip in that I all could breastfeed was 3 1/2 weeks. After a difficult 36 hour delivery, and then having to have my galbladder removed via emergency surgery 3 1/2 weeks later, I think my body just shut that down because of all the stress. Is there any studies that show any adverse effects from this? My son is 9 months old, and is actually lean for his age, but seems very healthy.
 

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Sarah Hall said:
I know this is your girls own little thing going here, but I just wanted to chip in that I all could breastfeed was 3 1/2 weeks. After a difficult 36 hour delivery, and then having to have my galbladder removed via emergency surgery 3 1/2 weeks later, I think my body just shut that down because of all the stress. Is there any studies that show any adverse effects from this? My son is 9 months old, and is actually lean for his age, but seems very healthy.
Sarah, do you mean adverse effects from formula feeding? If so, there are LOTS of studies.

In your son's case, he's better off for that 3 1/2 weeks he did get. For one thing he received colostrum, which we term "liquid gold" lol. It contains all of mom's antibodies and protects the baby against any disease mom has already fended off for the first 6 months (of course this doesn't apply to ones she has not encountered). Breastfeeding just the first 3 days of life is better than not at all! Optimally a baby should receive most of his nutrition from breastmilk for the first 12 months for a multitude of reasons; but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way.

It's not uncommon for milk to dry up if the mother is exceptionally stressed. I'm going to assume as well that you were placed on pain killers following your surgery that cannot be taken while nursing. THese drugs also seem to interfere with lactation. Most likely your body could not handle recovering from surgery AND providing for your son. In cases like these THANK GOODNESS we have an acceptable alternative (rather than the old condensed milk and karo syrup conconctions that were given prior to the invention of baby formulas...and in some areas of the country this "homemade" formula is still advocated due to poverty).

Also, don't let this experience hinder you from trying again with a 2nd baby (unless you're on medications counterindicated for breastfeeding). Just because it doesn't work with the first baby doesn't mean it won't with subsequent children! And I'm sorry to hear about your long labor and birth; this happens sometimes. Were you induced?
 

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Yes, I was induced because I was over-due. I was a no-drug person for the first 15 hours (even after they broke my water) and I finally broke down when the contractions that were off the scale (seriously) weren't getting me past 3-4. Not only was my son upside down (face up), but he was almost too big (at only 7lbs 5 oz) to go under my pelvic bone. I was placed on pain meds after my delivery for a level 4 tear, but I only used them once because they made my son throw up after every feeding. After my gallbladder I was prescribed meds, but had a severe allergic reaction after one dose so I just stopped taking anything.
I am considering having a second child, but I have some health problems that may hinder it, from what I've read. At the least, I will have to have a scheduled c-section. I don't know if you have knowledge on female reproductive health that we may be able to discuss privately in e-mail? If anyone would like to help, e-mail me or message me if you have AIM.
 

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Sarah,

I agree 110% that you gave your baby a great start with the breastfeeding you did. Congratulate yourself.

And this: "I know this is your girls own little thing".....NO WAY! You were addressed on the first message (mine) in the thread! :>)

I think this is a big health/social topic. I'm glad it was addressed this fully.

You know, learning about canine breeding might even help some people who have been misled or bamboozled about breastfeeding (not us) to understand just how big a part it is in the whole system. Well, it's a thought........
 

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Sarah Hall said:
Yes, I was induced because I was over-due. I was a no-drug person for the first 15 hours (even after they broke my water) and I finally broke down when the contractions that were off the scale (seriously) weren't getting me past 3-4. Not only was my son upside down (face up), but he was almost too big (at only 7lbs 5 oz) to go under my pelvic bone. I was placed on pain meds after my delivery for a level 4 tear, but I only used them once because they made my son throw up after every feeding. After my gallbladder I was prescribed meds, but had a severe allergic reaction after one dose so I just stopped taking anything.
I am considering having a second child, but I have some health problems that may hinder it, from what I've read. At the least, I will have to have a scheduled c-section. I don't know if you have knowledge on female reproductive health that we may be able to discuss privately in e-mail? If anyone would like to help, e-mail me or message me if you have AIM.
My email is [email protected], my MSN messenger is the same. I have a lot of resources available on the topic! Feel free to pick my brain :wink:

BTW, your story is not unique I'm afraid. You'd be surprised how many ladies have experienced what you have...most of the time it's the induction. A chemically induced labor bypasses the enzymes nad hormones necessary for a normal birthing experience. A cervix has to be more than dilated to facilitate birth: it has to soften, move forward in the birth canal, efface (or thin) AND dilate! There are a lot of horomones and enzymes necessary for this process to work; chemical induction interferes with them. Even with the help of prostaglandin gel (cervadil or prostil) the cervix may not ripen enough to make contractions productive. Also, synthetic oxytocin (pitocin) induced contractions bypass the pain centers of the brain which would normally control contraction pain, thus making induced contractions more intense and less effective than natural ones. Also, the use of electronic fetal monitoring (the heart and contraction monitor on teh belts) hinders movement; doctors also often place induced mothers in bed, with no movement, on their backs which interferes with EVERYTHING. Also, the WORST WORST WORST position fo rpushing is on your back/feet in stirrups (called lithotomy), but yet it's the most often used position. It's better to either squat, get on hands and knees, or stand. On your back you're not using gravity, your pelvis is tilted, your tailbone is IN the birth canal, and the baby can't rotate through the necessary head changes to be born. Also, the perineum doesn't stretch properly and often tears...

Okay, I'm gonna half myself now since I coudl go on for days on the topic LOL. Feel free to contact me...
 

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I would love to talk

[email protected]

The medical establsihment is not often condusive to a woman who wants to breastfeeed or have a natural birth with all the things they throw in the way and does not provide a good support network.

I had a c-section after baby 1 was three weeks late and 2 days on pitocin left me onoly 2 cm. - the only way they would let me proceed was with the internal fetal monitor and I told them they were not going to be screwing anything into my babies skull. I agree 100% on that stinking montitoring (external) and evil pitocin. I would turn the damned display away from me and the nurse kept turning it around so I could *see* my contractions. Give me a break!!!

Baby 2 again was 3 weeks late and I did castor oil to force labor but then it stopped which forced c-section 2 but, once again.......so I understand things not going exactly like you like. Even though I repeatedly said that my grandmother typically was 1 month over AND the fact that my babies showed no signs of being post mature (other than they were both almost 9 pounders) and had no fetal distress, 3 weeks was the cut off and they won't even let people go that far now. With number 2 we had found a doctor who would do a VBAC and also went through having her turned from breech to vertex (after the excercises did not work).....but alas. Thankfully the breastfeeding did work out both times (Thanks to my Granmother and some friends who were there for me, no thanks to the doctors)

My oldest daughter had pre-eclampsia with her first and did had to have an epidural -- he rlabor was impaired by having to lay on her back to control the blood pressure and they gave her pitocin which amplified the pain.

Her 2nd was 100% natural - no issues at all and she walked around until she was nearly in transition - and it was amazing to watch. Without the drugs, she was in an almost animal like trance (think alligators) with an un earthly moan and I was amazed at how the baby came out and was actually interacting with her father right after birth. (Mimicing toungue movements and cooing). I had never seen such an alert baby -- (who, BTW, is advanced in every way and was walking at 8 months).

Things don't always go perfect but we do what we can and that is all anyone can expect. I resented those who implied that I was a failure because I had 2 c-sections so I know there is some pain associated with things not going how visualized. You have to sometimes make informed on the fly decisions and your goal is to have a healthy baby which overides the desrire to have the ultimate birthing experience.

The best thing we did do and gave our daughter was Bradley classes instead of Lamaze. I was impressed with how SHE took control of her own birthing process after that and told the nurses how it was going to be the 2nd time around.
 

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Nancy Jocoy said:
I would love to talk

[email protected]

The medical establsihment is not often condusive to a woman who wants to breastfeeed or have a natural birth with all the things they throw in the way and does not provide a good support network.

I had a c-section after baby 1 was three weeks late and 2 days on pitocin left me onoly 2 cm. - the only way they would let me proceed was with the internal fetal monitor and I told them they were not going to be screwing anything into my babies skull. I agree 100% on that stinking montitoring (external) and evil pitocin. I would turn the damned display away from me and the nurse kept turning it around so I could *see* my contractions. Give me a break!!!

Baby 2 again was 3 weeks late and I did castor oil to force labor but then it stopped which forced c-section 2 but, once again.......so I understand things not going exactly like you like. Even though I repeatedly said that my grandmother typically was 1 month over AND the fact that my babies showed no signs of being post mature (other than they were both almost 9 pounders) and had no fetal distress, 3 weeks was the cut off and they won't even let people go that far now. With number 2 we had found a doctor who would do a VBAC and also went through having her turned from breech to vertex (after the excercises did not work).....but alas. Thankfully the breastfeeding did work out both times (Thanks to my Granmother and some friends who were there for me, no thanks to the doctors)

My oldest daughter had pre-eclampsia with her first and did had to have an epidural -- he rlabor was impaired by having to lay on her back to control the blood pressure and they gave her pitocin which amplified the pain.

Her 2nd was 100% natural - no issues at all and she walked around until she was nearly in transition - and it was amazing to watch. Without the drugs, she was in an almost animal like trance (think alligators) with an un earthly moan and I was amazed at how the baby came out and was actually interacting with her father right after birth. (Mimicing toungue movements and cooing). I had never seen such an alert baby -- (who, BTW, is advanced in every way and was walking at 8 months).

Things don't always go perfect but we do what we can and that is all anyone can expect. I resented those who implied that I was a failure because I had 2 c-sections so I know there is some pain associated with things not going how visualized. You have to sometimes make informed on the fly decisions and your goal is to have a healthy baby which overides the desrire to have the ultimate birthing experience.

The best thing we did do and gave our daughter was Bradley classes instead of Lamaze. I was impressed with how SHE took control of her own birthing process after that and told the nurses how it was going to be the 2nd time around.
Oh Nancy, I'm sorry you had such a tough time. It is NOT abnormal to gestate to 44 weeks! I have a midwife friend with 7 children (6 pregnancies, last is twin baby girls) who has gestated to 44 weeks EVERY time (save the twins, who were 42). Her babies were all born at home, too. Her twins were larger than any of my three singletons at 8 1/2 lbs EACH!!!

I'm sorry for your daughter, as well. All three of my pregnancies have been pre-eclamptic. However, it is a HUGE myth that pre-eclampsia = epidural. In fact, the epi is the WORST thing a doc can do for pre-e as it masks the damage being done to baby and mother. Pre-e is caused by vasospasm of the blood vessels t hroughout the body, including those in thie placenta. All the epidural does is cause hypotension; however it does NOTHING for the underlying cause. So while the doc is happy that the bp is low thanks to the epi, the fetus is still being denied oxygen thanks to blood vessel constriction and there still could be hemorrhage and all other manner of nasty things. ALso, the best thing for pre-e is quick delivery of hte baby; epidruals lenghthen labor and the pushign stage significantly, further endangering mom and baby. And then you add pitocin nad you're really asking for trouble; moms who receive pitocin are at an increased risk for placental abruption and hemorrhage. Pre-e already puts t em at risk for this, so you're really uppingn the chances of severe complications when you give pit to a pre-e mom.

All three of my babies were without pain meds; many of my clients have gone the pain med route. I do see a difference in the babies directly after birht, especially in their ability to breastfeed. I try very hard to get baby latched on within 10 minutes after birth! Not only is s/he exceptionally alert at that time, but nursing releases oxytocin for the mother which helps deliver hte placenta. I also advocate delayed cord clamping as it helps prevent neonatal jaundice and hemorrhage in the mother. So many of my moms breastfeed immediately with the cord still attached!

I am incredibly enthused to find so many like-minded ladies here on the working dog forum LOL! Who would have thought????
 

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LOL if the bad experiences can help others have good experiences so much the better!

In anyway though, everyone developed wonderfully - while grandaughter 1 did have real problems latching on and with alertness the first few weeks she is a bright, active, and fully normal healthy child and both of my daughters were and are quite healthy. The human body is very resiliant.

But there was definitely a difference with my youngest grandaughter. Her birth is the one that wells up the most emotion inside me. Watching it was a very spiritual experience and tears well up in my eyes when I think about it. My daughter and son in law are talking about learning to become Bradley instructors when they get more settled (they are finishing college right now and he will be looking for a job - she has decided to stay at home for a bit more and do part time work from home until the babies are older)
 
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