Working Dog Forums banner

Kmodt

17K views 73 replies 21 participants last post by  Cameron banks 
#1 ·
Anyone use the Koehler Method of Dog Training?

If so, how do you like the results?

Reason i ask is b/c someone i know has challenged me to read it and see what i think. Says i should implement it in my training and not look back.

Trains to not "bribe" your dog to obey with treats or toys. Thats its basis.

I ordered my copy of the book tonight. I'll read it with an open mind to see what i think.
 
#4 ·
KMODT is obsolete. There are lots of other methods that are more effective. Yes you can train a dog with it but it's like building a house with a claw hammer instead of a nail gun :)
 
#6 ·
i would suggest reading the book b4 drawing any conclusions up front. i was only able to get the online version, and it is incomplete.

i have a bunch of drafted posts regarding what i got from Koehler but have never gotten around to smoothing em out and posting

there's usually some take aways you can get from any training style; whether it's what to do or what not to do :)
 
#19 ·
Wow!

"I would think if his goals and yours are not the same it would have been prudent to withhold your opinion."



Huh? The O.P. asked if others had used the Koehler method and what they thought. Nothing about "and don't answer me unless you're training PP." :lol:


Like a whole lot of people of a certain age, I started with Koehler. There was finally a book, and it was clear. And it produced results.

As some others are saying, different protocols have come along in the many years since, and while I learned from Koehler, I've changed my methods.


BTW, to the O.P., "bribing" is a good way to describe marker training done wrong.


All JMO, just as the other posts are people's opinions .... and that's what was requested.




... there's usually some take aways you can get from any training style; whether it's what to do or what not to do ...
I'll drink to that.
 
#7 ·
I was doing Koehler back in the 50s-60s. Does it work? Yes!
There are many methods to train a dog so there is no reason not to read it, even use some of it.
In the past 10 yrs I've gone to marker training "almost" exclusively now.
Listen to everyone then decide what works for you and your dog.
 
#8 ·
Koehler was the method I first learned way back in the stone age, but I no longer do it. Marker training is so much faster and gets much better results. I will say that the very low drive dog, basic pet couch potato dog, still does better with a combo of Koehler/marker training as they have very little motivation and you end up making them do the exercises and then praising them. The high drive dog will offer behaviors as they are extremely motivated for their reward.
 
#10 ·
Hhhhhmmmm, I do my fair share of working with lower drive dogs as well as dogs that have been inhibited by incorrectly applied compulsion training. Marker training is highly effective with those type of dogs. I don't see how the decision of whether to apply marker or Koehler methods as one based on drive levels, at all.

T
 
#9 ·
SO is the challenge to read the books?

or is it to implement and use the training and follow the books and the Koehler methods exclusively?

There are several areas in which some of Koehlers methods have proven to be very valuable to me and many other people I know.

It certainly cannot hurt anything for you to read the books, just remember as with anything else, your interpretations of the written words, and your application of methods based on reading the books, may bear little resemblance to the methods and manner of use by the author.

Koehler obviously was much better at using his methods than many people that have read his books are.

I personally use some of the methods discussed in a few of his books in conjunction with things I have picked up from others as well. Like I said there are some real nuggets in his writings, at least I think so.



 
#11 ·
Contrary to what Mr. Barriano believes, KMODT is far from obsolete. It is in fact very relevant in both application and results. Its goal is off leash reliability. That, you will get if you adhere to the method within the proscribed 10 weeks.
I took my high drive Mal through the 10 week method before I did anything else. There were no e-collars, prongs, toys or tugs or treats or bites. Just the leash, the choke collar, the dog and me with my praise. We got to off-leash in ten weeks with a solid recall with distractions.
After that I started incorporating all the other training aids mentioned above, and began bite work.
You will get reliable gross aspect obedience with kmodt. If your dog is for PP, like mine is, its just what you need. You can certainly train with other methods after laying in the KMODT foundation.
You will not get that kind of tight attention heeling with KMODT. That's probably why Mr Barriano deems it obsolete, he must have some kind of sport dogs. And he likes them to have that prancy google eyed look, when he takes them out of their pens, to train them, or to trial them, or to show them to people he's trying to sell them to. Is that right Mr. Barriano?
 
#13 ·
You will not get that kind of tight attention heeling with KMODT. That's probably why Mr Barriano deems it obsolete, he must have some kind of sport dogs. And he likes them to have that prancy google eyed look, when he takes them out of their pens, to train them, or to trial them, or to show them to people he's trying to sell them to. Is that right Mr. Barriano?
Most of the people on the WDF compete with their dogs and want attention heeling. If your goals are just PP then KMODT is sufficient for those minimal standards. FYI My dogs aren't for sale
 
#14 ·
Thank you for clarifying your position on KMODT Mr. Barriano.
Just to summarize; for PP dogs, or on the job police dogs, or military dogs that are searching for bombs, KMODT is a suitable way to train basic obedience. Because, for dogs in those professions attention heeling is not necessary.
But, for your sporting dogs, which probably spend at the most 100 hours out of their entire lifetime in actual competitive circumstances, KMODT is not a valid training method.
And, Mr.Barriano, based on your need for attention heeling and other types of sport OB like precision sitting, downing, etc. you take every opportunity to malign KMODT whenever its mentioned.
The OP's interest is in PP, he asked about KMODT, I would think if his goals and yours are not the same it would have been prudent to withhold your opinion.
Mr. Barriano, I can only hope that if the Queen of England ever visits Colorado, you and your dogs are called upon to protect her from any rudeness or improprieties she may encounter. Such a task could never be entrusted to any lowly PP or military dog. Isn't that right Mr. Barriano?
 
#18 ·
Thank you for clarifying your position on KMODT Mr. Barriano.

>You're welcome

Just to summarize; for PP dogs, or on the job police dogs, or military dogs that are searching for bombs, KMODT is a suitable way to train basic obedience. Because, for dogs in those professions attention heeling is not necessary.

>don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing about Police dogs
>or MWD's. KMODT is barely suitable for training basic pet dog obedience. Training advances. KMODT is > 50 years old.
>You can drive across the country in a 1950 Ford with a flat head V8 and three speed transmission and drum brakes and
>no AC. I'd rather have a 2013 car with a fuel injected computer controlled V6, cruise control, disc brakes AC etc.

But, for your sporting dogs, which probably spend at the most 100 hours out of their entire lifetime in actual competitive circumstances, KMODT is not a valid training method.

>As I've stated before. Nobody said KMODT doesn't work.
>There are just LOTS of other methods that work better.

And, Mr.Barriano, based on your need for attention heeling and other types of sport OB like precision sitting, downing, etc. you take every opportunity to malign KMODT whenever its mentioned.

>and you take every opportunity to defend it. What's your
>point?

The OP's interest is in PP, he asked about KMODT, I would think if his goals and yours are not the same it would have been prudent to withhold your opinion.

>And other people have given their opinion on KMODT that
>don't do PP either. I think it would be prudent of you to leave
>the question of any ones replies on this or any or any other >topic to the list owner or moderator.

Mr. Barriano, I can only hope that if the Queen of England ever visits Colorado, you and your dogs are called upon to protect her from any rudeness or improprieties she may encounter. Such a task could never be entrusted to any lowly PP or military dog. Isn't that right Mr. Barriano?

>I'm sure the Queen has her own security force, but feel free
>to offer your KMODT trained malinois for her consideration.
 
#16 ·
i guess you all know that the vast majority of dogs trained by Koehler were NOT PP's/PSD's/MWD's .....

imo the two things that Koehler, Cesar Millan, Michael Ellis and all dog trainers have in common is ... their good points and their bad points :)

and imo good points and bad points are kinda like beauty...

looking fwd to a report after reading ... please let us know if it was a life changing experience and you won't need to look at any other training method again //lol//
 
#17 ·
and when you start reading you will probably get a good chuckle from some of his evaluations of the many different breeds you might want to consider for guarding/protection work ... it definitely dates the book :)

but no matter what you think of his system, it should still be a fun read ... he has a good style of writing imo
 
#24 ·
Imo low drive dogs require more compulsion to achieve reliable obedience under distraction. If the dog has less motivation to have what you have what do you think will happen to the reliability when you run into competing motivators? Thats been my experience anyways.
Perhaps like anything else Koehler works well with certain types of dog and not so well with others?
 
#30 ·
And high drive dogs don't run into competing motivators or distractions? Do you all really think you need a prey slave to be able to train reliability? Regardless of drives, rewards or motivators should be something the dog really desires. I work with all sorts of so called drive levels and with any of them the trick is to find what motivates them to perform the work. An important part of this is the dog's relationship with the handler.

T
 
#28 ·
My older GSD Thunder
Cadaver trained land and water, Trained in article search, Sch III, CDX, HT, TT, CGC. ALL trained with markers and no physical corrections.
:lol: Why I get into these discussions in beyond me. Those that don't want to believe, wont. Simple as that!;-)
 
#31 ·
re: "the dog's relationship with the handler....."

i like that phrase ... too bad it's never discussed on here and just taken for granted ](*,)

funny but it's the FIRST think i notice with any customer who is having problems with their dog
...and i sure as hell don't think it applies only to "pet owners", and it isn't necessarily tied to the training system being used

if i ever write a dog book, that will be the subject
....bonding
how to measure it
how to build it up
how to repair a bad bond
why it's taken for granted
...and why a week or two of "down time" with a lot of feeding and watering with no training or no plan is NOT the best way to bond ...imo of course :)
...will be many chapters //lol//
 
#32 ·
i doubt many people have trained a "guard dog" by following the Koehler method of guard dog training unless they were training with him in a class.

why did i say this ?
because i have talked to a few people on a face to face basis who claimed to have used the Koehler method. NONE of them could put it in words and go back through the steps they used in the conversation. Koehler, whether you like him or not, presents his "system" in a very precise, step by step manner. few other trainers have written with the same attention to detail. if they have books out, i've never read them. now that everything is on dvd's that will probably become even rarer.

i guess all that means to me is that people pick and choose stuff and then they do it "their" way, whether they give credit to other trainers or not.

in fact i doubt if many people even use his selection testing for choosing their dog in the first place.
....and i also have my doubts that people still use throw chains in the way Koehler requires to train their dog

still a good read imo
 
#74 ·
i doubt many people have trained a "guard dog" by following the Koehler method of guard dog training unless they were training with him in a class.

why did i say this ?
because i have talked to a few people on a face to face basis who claimed to have used the Koehler method. NONE of them could put it in words and go back through the steps they used in the conversation. Koehler, whether you like him or not, presents his "system" in a very precise, step by step manner. few other trainers have written with the same attention to detail. if they have books out, i've never read them. now that everything is on dvd's that will probably become even rarer.

i guess all that means to me is that people pick and choose stuff and then they do it "their" way, whether they give credit to other trainers or not.

in fact i doubt if many people even use his selection testing for choosing their dog in the first place.
....and i also have my doubts that people still use throw chains in the way Koehler requires to train their dog

still a good read imo

I can't comment on the guard dog side of things but I still train pet dogs through the KMODT novice program

I use throw chains as he prescribes I'n the novice system

Here is a GSD just starting week 7
 
#33 ·
I would also hazard a guess that Koehler himself did not use the exact same methods all the time for everything, in many of his books he does offer multiple ways for various things, and probably in those cases he put down into words a couple few of the ones that worked more often for what the goals are.

I also think many of the philosophies are pretty good on premise, and that overall the man made a huge contribution to dog training in general. I have met many people with dogs that I thought in my head while looking at them, "if they tried a few of the Koehler options for that, it'd probably be an easy fix..."

there are several things he suggests that can work with only 1-2-3 repetitions :)



 
#35 ·
Koehler dog training works. The aesthetic is not very good. But done correctly, you can achieve reliable behaviors. Koehler is strictly a pressure avoidance and positive punishment system. I don't know where the 'marker' comment is coming from.

Efficacy is not enough, to me. If it can be trained through positive reinforcement, then I feel a moral obligation to do so. I try to use compulsion only where my R+ training has failed. That's my moral compass in dog training, but everyone is different.
 
#38 ·
I think people used to "praise" their dogs in training, when they did something well, many times that praise was also associated with some sort of reward, and also physical release as well. I also think people used to use verbal or physical "signals" that were used to relay to the dog that he is not doing things correctly, in place of, or prior to some form of correction. Long before "marker training" was a popular term. I think many dog trainers use many methods that are common knowledge to the community, and few label something as their own method, or system.

I think Koehler's methodology is in some ways pretty much marker training if you think about it. (Especially if people had those dogs with "genetic obedience" and high biddibility :)

Or maybe I am looking at marker training in a very different way or something.

Just out of curiosity (side note) honest question for all.

Is there an official Marker Training system?

I think of it as a philosophy that can be applied to many areas of training, not an actual specific system. I do see the obvious differences in certain phases of training, like teaching.

Are there not corrections used in marker training systems?

Who innovated the "marker training system"?
 
#36 ·
people i've met who said they used Koehler's methods have been oldies and it was for past dogs .... their memories of the specifics was also old

maybe some of those who like it will actually discuss how they are doing it today and even post some vids of their koehler training methods....
- how to get an out comes to mind....specifically using a (Koehler-spec) hose on those "hard" dogs, and simple chain tosses for those not so hard canines //lol//

if it was so good i would think lots of ppd dog owners and psd trainers would still be using koehler techniques ... then again, there aren't many K9 LEOS that walk a beat on today's streets, and a lot of his training was geared for that type LEO
... but i do think the ppd people could/should step up and come out of the closet if they are koehler training and actually show others how good it is; otherwise it will just be online chat stuff

maybe some youtube searchers can find some modern day koehler clips
 
#37 ·
There are parts of the kmodt training method that is absolutely applicable. But it is not which method is good or not. All methods, at its core is a modulation and application of operant conditioning, Pavlovian connection, and situational learning, together with threshold theory.
A book cannot hope to elaborate fully any person's method. As with much of dog training, you have to see it, do it, and make mistakes to see consequences.
That is why there are handling skill differences.

To be frank, this book was written before the advent of e collars, and marker training. So, I would consider it rudimentary. It's like working with a horse and buggy when there are cars around. Does it get you to point a to b? Yes. But the ones using the newest cars will leave you in the dust.

The other aspect of this is CONNECTION. I don't want to correct my dog. That is, I don't ever want my dog to think a correction comes from me. I want him to think its his BEHAVIOUR that controls the correction and speed of reward. This has NOTHING to do with training for PP or sport. It's good training. Period. It builds reliability and connection. Critical in BOTH PP and sport.
 
#40 ·
We never had Koehler over here in Europe as far as I know. Most was on sale, so I bought it. The one I bought was published in 1975, a while before I started dog training.


http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=dgt223

Maybe their methods were "harsh" from the today's point of view but maybe far less "cruel" than some of today's trainers' methods which very often leave a dog in a grey zone and confused.

I know, we "know more" about the canine. Do we? Or are we projecting our new found information about the canine on to an unsuspecting victim?
 
#47 ·
For a limited value of "forever," yep.

I did that twice and both of the dogs involved were foster mutts, so they were adopted out within 2-3 weeks after getting busted for counter surfing. They didn't try it again in my house, but the world will never know whether they might have been tempted to take a second shot if I'd had them longer.

I suspect they would not have tried it again. Most of my fosters were "yard dogs" in their previous lives and don't know anything about how to live inside houses when I get them, so once they learn the rules of indoor living it's like "oh okay" and that's that. So I think they would probably have been fine after the first incident, and their adopters have never mentioned any counter-surfing problems to me.

But I'll never actually know.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top