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Most's book is a great book to have in any ref library....too bad he was German (military) and didn't train dogs for movies like Koehler, but i would still imagine a lot of Germans are familiar with him
 

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My mind recently goes to a mutt that was on anti anxiety meds and had very poor nerves that was also DA. Now a lot of his issues were handler related but a little +P and the handler taking a more firm stance on misbehavior did wonders.
There are more but thats the most recent one that comes to mind.

Im not saying this is the case 100% of the time but I think that many handlers who hold that view would be surprised that their dog can infact handle some +P and their supposed shutdowns are more handler created / enabled then reality. Is it always the best option? I think thats up to the trainer on scene.
I don't doubt this happens. I think that's independent of willingness to use +P to some extent, though. Most pet dogs are in the hands of pet owners, because most working/sport people switch to higher-octane dogs once they get seriously into that world. And a lot of pet owners are pretty clueless about reading or managing dogs. They're not only wrong about how best to handle problems, a lot of the time they're wrong about what the problem even is.

With regard to Pongu specifically, though, I am dead certain that +P (of any level, even the verbal "No!" that I'm willing to hand out) would have been counterproductive to my goals with my dog.

I don't know if you've ever tried to compete with a severely, genetically fearful dog in anything, but I'm gonna guess the answer is probably "no" because it suuuuuuccks and for any sane person the answer has to be "no." A fearful dog is a whole level of hell beyond "soft." The only explanation I have for why I do this is that Pongu was my first dog and I didn't know what I was getting into and by the time I figured it out, welp, he was My Dog and that's that, once he's My Dog then I am just going to have to do whatever I can with him, because there's no returning a defective pound puppy to the breeder.

Like 90% of our training is just teaching Pongu such Important Life Lessons as: the bar jump is not a monster (he ran and hid in another room for 40 minutes the first time I unpacked our new practice jump) and the competition ring is not a death trap for unwary dogs and no actually good stuff happens in there, really, I promise!!

For this dog, with whom I am boneheadedly determined to compete because I'm an idiot, clicker training (in the broader usage of "all clicks and cookies all the time, no worse consequence than a NRM and reset for failure") has been an absolute godsend. It has built up his confidence to where he can actually function in the ring more often than not. It has taught him to go in there eager and smiling, and to not only tolerate a stranger looking at him (which he couldn't do for years) but to accept a Stand for Exam with an unfamiliar judge in an unfamiliar trial venue and pull out Novice scores in the 190s. Today, if he scores below 205 in a Rally run, that was a bad run. 14 months ago when we started, if he didn't NQ from total meltdown disaster, that was a good run.

Would I do it again? Oh hell no. I love him more than anything in the world, but when Pongu retires I'm getting a dog that doesn't suck. But since I am currently trying to do things with a super fearful crazy pound mutt, well... as I said up thread, it's been a pretty steep learning curve. But at this point I feel reasonably confident that I know how to trial with a fearful dog (which is almost as useful as knowing how to dig a gold mine with a grapefruit spoon!), and I do feel pretty confident saying that +P is not tremendously useful for achieving reliability, or anything else, in that narrow situation.
 

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re: Pongu
sounds like an interesting and frustrating case

since i work with a lot customers dogs, i usually don't have an option of telling them their dog is a nerve bag they should dump, so i would be interested in any specific techniques that you have used to reduce fearfulness; whether successful or not :)
- not generalities, i've been there, but any specific confidence building training sessions
- i doubt the hard corps working crowd would ever want to admit their dog had fear issues, but even good working dogs can still use confidence building...there could be benefits for them too, that sort of session would never hurt them :)

- but if you don't want to start a new thread and share, feel free to PM me.
TIA


This fearfulness topic is now at http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/reactive-fearful-dogs-33481/#post500217
 

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marker training has been proven for decades to be effective with a number of different species....many of which would be way too dangerous to train using physical compulsion...to the point of being just plain stupid or suicidal :)
... big cats and marine mammals are just a couple of examples
I was just thinking this same thing after watching the Black Fish thing on CNN about the Orcas.

I use 'marker' training with my guys. I start with a clicker and then move to 'yes.' I'll still use the clicker for very fine motor skill things. Teaching front (I want his feet on my feet), teaching the retrieve anything I throw I used the clicker to get him to pick up random stuff.

I also mark negative stuff. When I KNOW the dog knows a behavior (in context) and he KNOWS I know he knows and he doesn't do it. He'll get a "no" and get about 1/2 a second to perform the behavior before he gets a correction. I've 'loaded' his "no" with correction. When we're doing things out of context (motion exercises, bigger jumps, position changes in a pool, searching a new room, etc etc) I'll give the "try again" while shaking my head. It means "you sorta did what I want but not really, do it again." Not really a correction, not a reward, but a mark non-the-less. They'll offer behaviors (without fear of correction) until they do it right, BIG reward. Reset do it again times 100. Then when his dumbass doesn't do, and he has 100 times correctly................. correction.
 

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re: Black Fish ... saw the promo on CNN but not the final product. was it responsible reporting or the usual CNN spin ??
.... PM is fine

btw, i still know a few guys who work dolphin experiences at some resorts. they have told me the hotels get very sensitive about downplaying any "flipper" aggression towards the guests ... like some demo dogs, they are specially "primed" for their public appearances //lol//
 

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re: Black Fish ... saw the promo on CNN but not the final product. was it responsible reporting or the usual CNN spin ??
.... PM is fine

btw, i still know a few guys who work dolphin experiences at some resorts. they have told me the hotels get very sensitive about downplaying any "flipper" aggression towards the guests ... like some demo dogs, they are specially "primed" for their public appearances //lol//
like almost ALL demo dogs :)



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There is a whole thread about Pongu on the GSD Forum. I don't know if I'm allowed to link it here but it's called "The Long Road with a Fearful Dog" and it's in their Obedience & Rally subforum. You can see videos of Pongu's craptastic performances and be thoroughly unimpressed! ;)

More seriously, I don't know if there's anything I can tell you that you don't already know. I wrote out this incredibly long boring post (it must be like 1500 words) and then I realized, wait, none of this actually helps if you're working with client dogs and not your own dog. Ultimately all you can do in that situation is try not to set the dog back and tell the owner what they need to do -- because theirs is the relationship that's being carried into the ring, and that's what is going to make or break a fearful dog.
 

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I would like to give my 2 cents too!

I have read the book and seen it used for many years, like all the otherestablished methods of training, it works, results are as good or as bad as the person using it.

Same with reward based systems (marker, clicker or whatever you want to call it) If you don't get results it is your fault, stop giving excuses!!!

As far as soft, hard, driven or low driven dogs, all systems works, is the trainer inability to communicate with the dog that causes all the problems, always.

Notice that I am talking about the control/obedience part.

The system one chooses to work their dog with should be based more on the type of relationship u want to have with your dog.
In today's world the khoeler (sp?) method is obsolete but is still the simplest method for the "new" dog trainers.

Dog training and dog performances have advanced so much!!

Happy training

Max
 

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re: Pongu
sounds like an interesting and frustrating case

since i work with a lot customers dogs, i usually don't have an option of telling them their dog is a nerve bag they should dump, so i would be interested in any specific techniques that you have used to reduce fearfulness; whether successful or not :)
- not generalities, i've been there, but any specific confidence building training sessions
- i doubt the hard corps working crowd would ever want to admit their dog had fear issues, but even good working dogs can still use confidence building...there could be benefits for them too, that sort of session would never hurt them :)

- but if you don't want to start a new thread and share, feel free to PM me.
TIA
Heyyyyyy, share the wealth. :)

There are others that venture in the land of "other peoples fearful dogs."

T



Moved this fearfulness topic to
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/reactive-fearful-dogs-33481/#post500217
 

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i doubt many people have trained a "guard dog" by following the Koehler method of guard dog training unless they were training with him in a class.

why did i say this ?
because i have talked to a few people on a face to face basis who claimed to have used the Koehler method. NONE of them could put it in words and go back through the steps they used in the conversation. Koehler, whether you like him or not, presents his "system" in a very precise, step by step manner. few other trainers have written with the same attention to detail. if they have books out, i've never read them. now that everything is on dvd's that will probably become even rarer.

i guess all that means to me is that people pick and choose stuff and then they do it "their" way, whether they give credit to other trainers or not.

in fact i doubt if many people even use his selection testing for choosing their dog in the first place.
....and i also have my doubts that people still use throw chains in the way Koehler requires to train their dog

still a good read imo

I can't comment on the guard dog side of things but I still train pet dogs through the KMODT novice program

I use throw chains as he prescribes I'n the novice system

Here is a GSD just starting week 7
 
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