[Greg Long]

Im not trying to tell anyone what to do.Im just sharing my opinion.

You should be able to turn this behavior off or back on again.It is simply a communication and control issue.

I would have a dog like this on a prong.You dont have to jerk a dogs head off to give a small correction and communicate to the dog that you will not accept that behavior at that time.This wont hurt the dog in any way as far as drive goes if done correctly.I would not use an ecollar for this situation.

If you dont want to give corrections or use a prong then just ignore it if you can.

Greg

 

[Stacia Porter]

Achilles is an easily trainable dog. He is highly food driven, has a great ball drive, and has always responded well to verbal corrections and scruff shakes. He's not soft -- don't get me wrong. He just has a high need to please. The dog would kill himself doing our bidding.

Until now we've never questioned his behavior as anything other than high drives. Kristen is right: he is a VERY vocal dog! He has barked at everything that moves since he was 9 weeks old (and probably before that, but since that's when we got him that's all I can attest to). He has \"conversations\" with people. He has been taught the geb laut command and does bark and hold. It's just getting him to be quiet that we've never had any luck with. Once he's distracted by something he's barking at, nothing seems to get through to him. We used to be able to at least pick hiim up and remove him from teh situation, but of cousre he's gotten a little big for that...

His behavior toward Jak a week ago, and toward other dogs he sees passing our house, has created a cause for concern. I absolutely do not want him to dominate other dogs. It's just a double edged sword...if I correct him for barking at things he sees as \"threats\" to our house I might be sending him the wrong message since his job here is guardian. I don't mind correcting him for his on-leash behavior b/c that really is undesirable...but then again what if it comes in handy one day should one of us be attacked? And what if we impact his SchH training?

Thanks for the insight...if anyone has any other advice I'd really appreciate it. And so would my neighbors LOL!

 

[Guest]

If your dog is mentally strong, he is not going to fail to come to your aid just because you have corrected him in the past for incessant barking. If he's the kind of dog you want to rely on, this shouldn't be an issue. By establishing leadership you're reinforcing the mindset that he works for you, because you told him to, and then after a while, because he wants to. You can't stop him from wanting to dominate other dogs; you can stop him from actually doing it by reasserting yourself as his leader, using whatever means necessary that you feel comfortable with. I didn't use a prong at first, but when my dog really showed true dominance, I bought one so fast his ginormous head spun. (Then again, I'm the mean Mother who also fasts him 1-2x weekly, too :lol: ) Not saying your dog is really dominant or that he needs a prong. I'm not convinced (and can't be w/out seeing him), that it's not a bit of adolescent insecurity. I think we as humans miss \"cues\" and subtle things from our dogs to other dogs and often therefore misunderstand not only the nature of the problem, but even who actually \"started it.\" I've seen this with my own; one is being sneaky who seems innocent, and the other (who at first glance seems the aggressor) was actually just responding to the first one's signals. It's sometimes as subtle as an ear twitch, so I wouldn't over-analyze a dog-to-dog issue just yet. You don't know what Jak could've said to him :wink: .

 

[Stacia Porter]

I think we as humans miss \"cues\" and subtle things from our dogs to other dogs and often therefore misunderstand not only the nature of the problem, but even who actually \"started it.\" I've seen this with my own; one is being sneaky who seems innocent, and the other (who at first glance seems the aggressor) was actually just responding to the first one's signals. It's sometimes as subtle as an ear twitch, so I wouldn't over-analyze a dog-to-dog issue just yet. You don't know what Jak could've said to him :wink: .

OMG I've had it wrong: Kristen, it's YOUR DOG'S FAULT . Jak was talking crap -- I know it! And here I've been blaming sweet, innocent, quiet Achilles :evil: . Just kidding.

Very good point, Jenni. He's at a weird age and he's been through quite a lot of changes with our recent move (we've been in the process of moving since January 4th ). And I don't think anyone's a \"bad mom\" for fasting: when our dogs ate RAW I fasted them about every 10 days, sometimes sooner. The problem with Achilles is that he's still so darn food driven that even a one meal fast makes him an insane companion. He starts knocking stuff over in an attempt to find food, and when you try to train with treats he's so focused on getting the food that he won't listen to a darn thing we tell him! He'd just go through every command he knew in some sort of predetermined order hoping that any one of those actions would earn him that tasty morsel :? .We learned quickly not to train that dog on an empty stomach unless we were using thhe ball or jute as a reward.

We also have had to learn to be careful how much we correct. Just before we left Germany he was getting antsy with all the moving crap and we started getting harsher wiht corrections b/c of his behavior. We took him to SchH and he actually laid his ears back and let go during a bite when DH approached to take his leash! OMG were we embarrassed. We tried again and he did it a 2nd time! THe other club members started asking us if we'd been hitting or otherwise abusing him. Of course not! But he sure made it look like we had. We eased up and went back to basic OB with lots of food treats and he was fine by the next session...but it really opened our eyes to being careful about overcorrection.

 

[Kristen Cabe]

No, you're probably right about Jak! He probably went over there all cocky and spouted off some crap about what a big man he was or something and got Achilles all in a tiff. LOL!! :lol: We got to meet Jak's breeder and mother from Alaska today at training and the breeder said that Jak has always been a little badass; even with his littermates, though he was sort of \"the runt,\" he kicked all of their butts when they were little. hee hee!

Achilles' behavior might just be another phase he's going through, coupled with all the stress you all have been through over the past few months. The barking at home, I would ignore if you think correcting him for it would interfere with his protecting your home, but off your property and away from your yard, I would correct for incessant, crazy barking at everything he sees. I know you said you didn't want to use a prong, and I'm not saying you have to, but you honestly don't have to do much to give a correction with one. You can do anything from a slight flick of the wrist to an all out yank, depending on the situation, what you're correcting for, and what your dog responds to. Since you can't get Achilles' attention off whatever he's focused on with the flat collar, I think he might just need something that can get his attention a little better. Choke chains can be dangerous because of their unlimited slip and only having one 'correction point' on the dog's neck (the ring). A prong evenly distributes your correction all the way around the neck, simulating the way dogs \"correct\" each other by using their teeth. All you would need to figure out is just how hard a tug Achilles would need on the prong (after whatever command you want to use to make him stop) to get him to look away from the thing he is so focused on. By look away, I don't mean that you jerk his head around and force him to look away. Looking away in the beginning might be nothing more than just a quick glance when you tug the collar. And at that precise moment when his eyes flick away from that object, he should get LOTS and LOTS of praise and treats. If he doesn't respond when you tug the leash, the tug wasn't quite strong enough and you will need to bump it up a notch until you do get a reaction. Personally, if it were me, rather than using one extremely forceful tug to get his attention, I would use 3-4 rapid-fire tug tug tugs. That way you don't have to tug *quite* so hard as if you were just giving one hard yank, and he wouldn't stand there thinking, \"Ok, if I bark at that squirrel, I'm going to get a hard yank on my neck, but I can brace for that and keep right on barking.\" Doing rapid-fire tugs seem to work better to get a dog's attention because they aren't as able to brace through them. This is also why tazers and stun guns do not just throw out one big pulse of electricity. They pulsate, which makes it extremely difficult to brace and fight against.

Jak wears a bark collar at night, and I correct him for barking at other dogs when we are out, and that certainly hasn't impacted his barking on the SchH field, or during play at home, or when I come home from work, one bit. He just knows that he cannot bark bark bark at night, and barking at other dogs while we are out is also not a desirable behavior. Barking for a toy, or during play, or at the decoy is perfectly okay though, and he gets lots of praise for barking when he's supposed to bark. Praising for barking at the correct times, when you WANT him to bark; and correcting for barking at inappropriate times I don't think will affect his behavior on the field at all. Someone feel free to jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong, though!!!

 

[susan tuck]

Kristen, Bravo, well said!

 

[Greg Long]

Jak wears a bark collar at night, and I correct him for barking at other dogs when we are out, and that certainly hasn't impacted his barking on the SchH field, or during play at home, or when I come home from work, one bit. He just knows that he cannot bark bark bark at night, and barking at other dogs while we are out is also not a desirable behavior. Barking for a toy, or during play, or at the decoy is perfectly okay though, and he gets lots of praise for barking when he's supposed to bark. Praising for barking at the correct times, when you WANT him to bark; and correcting for barking at inappropriate times I don't think will affect his behavior on the field at all. Someone feel free to jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong, though!!!

Yep, thats what I say.You should be able to turn it or any other behavior on or off.You just have to make sure the dog understands what you want.

Greg

 

[Jerry Lyda]

My question is this and I know I'll be going about it in a strange way. If the barking is acceptable then leave it alone. What I read was that this was not while walking but on the schutzhund field it was OK. I understand this completely, but I don't want mine doing it when we walk either. When mine did this, and about all will, I corrected him with a pinch collar. I believe one good meaningfull correction is better than a, now don't you do that with or without a flat collar correction. A strong dog will tolerate that and just blow you off as a nuisance. If I'm to control this type of dog I must have his respect. If this type dog doesn't respect me he will never be what he can be. He will always be a pain in the butt. Teenagers need and want to respect their parents, dogs are not much different. They need to know who is in charge. With children and with dogs it's called tough love. With chilren as with dogs us parents must do what we think is right by them. We can go on and on about types of corrections(children/dogs). That's part of what makes the world go around. As far as me and my dog I WILL NOT accept behavior that is unacceptable. He must and will play and live by my rules. I'm not hard on my dogs just hard enough and I do it with love for my dogs.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Jerry,

Yes. A strong dog can't be allowed to win in a disagreement about behavior, IMO. I personally believe that about all dogs, but I believe it's essential with a strong dog.

I was happy to learn that SchH training (new for me) does not change this -- for me -- very basic rule.

We all have our own training decisions and beliefs, and that's mine.

And others will have different takes, which is fine! I also have to bow to the people who have raised puppies, because all of my own experience has always been with adults. So I haven't had a dog whose background and training from babyhood was known to me. I can see that it might make it a little easier to be more flexible with training decisions.

 

[susan tuck]

From what I've read this thread has been about young adults, & I agree with the posters who advocate pinch collars & the proper use of same. Now with little pups, I don't want to mess with the drives too much, so really almost no corrections. I just try to keep them pointed in the right direction! But I digress, this is not the puppy section, sorry!

 

[Stacia Porter]

I suppose I may have to break down and just get the prong. He's being quite a butthead today and he and I have gotten into it quite a bit. My husband left for 6 weeks yesterday adn apparently puppy boy believes it's now play time! UH UH. He's breaking stays, laying down when he's told to sit, jumping on furniture. WTH? Right now he's in a down stay and keeps looking at me pitifully. He ain't gettin' up for at least an hour dammit.

And my other dog is GROWLING over her food. Is it just not my day or what? I took that away from her. I think my dogs are organizing. \"Dad's gone, let's get HER!\"

I guess a trip to the pet store is in order...course it won't happen soon b/c I'm sitting here waiting on the army to deliver my washer and dryer and instead of giving me a real time, I was told \"anything between 8 AM and 5 PM.\" Wow, that's specific. I tried to call the moving company to get a better estimate, but of course transportation gave me the WRONG number and I can't seem to find it on the 'net. So here I sit. Guess it's for the best anyway since my son is home sick from school with a wicked cold (that he was nice enough to give ME, too -- aaaah presents from the children are precious).

 

[susan tuck]

I'm so sorry you are having a bad day.

 

[Guest]

Stacia, FYI-if you can get a Sprenger prong, try to buy that. I bought a cheap one, and while it worked fine, the links were nearly impossible for a weakling like myself to open, so I had to put it over his head. If I did that, it didn't fit right. I really don't need to correct very often when Caleb's wearing his prong; he just doesn't even try me! I think you're at that obnoxious age; my dog is starting to relent a bit on the dominance-several months ago he was a real butthead. I couldn't make him platz if I sat on him. Good luck!

 

[Jerry Lyda]

Stacie, you will not have a problem with the prong collar and you're dog won't either. This is the best thing for him.

To me he is showing that he is making himself a dominant dog. I understand he is only 12 months old and this behavior needs to be delt with now and I'm so glad you have decided to use the prong collar. If it's not delt with now, later on I see a dog like this being dog aggrestive. Not a good thing. Can you imagine him getting hold of another dog?

A dog like you've got I would love to have. I like a dog with some backbone. He sounds as if he will be strong enough to handle those corrections from you, just don't let anyone else do it. He may come up the leash on them. Be fair with him and he will return the fairness. Enjoy that boy, I know I would. :wink: Jerry

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Stacie, you will not have a problem with the prong collar and you're dog won't either. This is the best thing for him.

To me he is showing that he is making himself a dominant dog. I understand he is only 12 months old and this behavior needs to be delt with now and I'm so glad you have decided to use the prong collar. If it's not delt with now, later on I see a dog like this being dog aggrestive. Not a good thing. Can you imagine him getting hold of another dog?

A dog like you've got I would love to have. I like a dog with some backbone. He sounds as if he will be strong enough to handle those corrections from you, just don't let anyone else do it. He may come up the leash on them. Be fair with him and he will return the fairness. Enjoy that boy, I know I would. :wink: Jerry

Jerry, this is very well-said!

Once the dog understands the command 100%, then the correction for disobeying is fair.

And yes, this sounds like a dog who will be strong and interesting, and with whom you will really be engaging with your pack-leader side! Calm assertive is a good thing.

I hope your day picks up a bit. Isn't it funny how the dogs know when there is upheaval or stress and take quick advantage of it?

I find that being the pack leader (calm and assertive and 100% in charge) can even make me deal better with all aspects of the day! :wink: And I speak as someone who just came home from the dentist! :lol:

 

[Stacia Porter]

Well, my day got worse! Washer and dryer got here, but they're BROKEN. THey actually dropped them! Big old dent and the control panel is all out of place...appliance expert at Sears says DON'T USE THEM!!!!

Then I find out that the water shut off valves for the washer leak like nobody's business, so I'll be headed to Home Depot to figure out how to change them. While I\"m there I have to order a new washer and dryer, and then I get to spend 12 weeks or more filing a claim for the gov't to pay for broken washer/dryer combo. Who wants to place bets about how little I get back from them on it? Any takers? :wink:

Achilles has thankfully figured out mom's in a crappy mood and has behaved most of the day. He started to bark at some unknown danger earlier and I gave him the look of dread...he quickly left the window and laid down in the family room. Guess after he saw Abbie lose her breakfast and spent an hour in a down-stay he's figured out that Mama ain't playin' no games! Of course it'll all start over again tomorrow.

Achilles is fun. He's far too smart for his own good; opening doors, getting out his own training implements,, bringing me my shoes when he wants to go out. Sometimes I forget he's still a baby until he crawls in my lap, or gives me that \"I'm sorry\" look. Then I feel bad...especially if I realize that whatever \"bad\" thing he's just done is partly my fault (like getting into the trash bag I left untied and full against the wall). He certainly is a challenge...

Connie I hope your dentist visit aftereffects are better!

 

[Kristen Cabe]

Down-stays are wonderful, aren't they?! They are such an effective way of enforcing your status and keeping the dog out of trouble at the same time! So sorry about your washer and dryer. That really sucks. Maybe, just maybe, the Army will do you right this time. *crossing fingers and toes for you*



Just one more note about the prong collar - if you're worried about it being too 'harsh,' you can buy the vinyl tips that go over the prongs. I used them on the dobie/hound I fostered because the bare prongs seemed to irritate his neck. They may not work as well on a longer haired dog like a shepherd, but they are at least a thought. :wink:

 

[Connie Sutherland]

.....Just one more note about the prong collar - if you're worried about it being too 'harsh,' you can buy the vinyl tips that go over the prongs. I used them on the dobie/hound I fostered because the bare prongs seemed to irritate his neck. They may not work as well on a longer haired dog like a shepherd, but they are at least a thought. :wink:

I'd like to hear more about this. When I first saw this, I thought it seemed to be counterproductive. But since then, I've heard people say that they worked with smooth dogs.

Has anyone else used the vinyl covers on the pinch collar for a smooth or thin-coat dog?

Thanks for mentioning this, Kristen; I always forget to post that question!

 

[Bob Scott]

Connie, the vinyl tips don't affect the action of the collar. It's the action, not necessarily the \"sharpness\" or lack of, that makes them effective. Of course some will disagree with me. There are trainers out there that actually sharpen pinch collars. The pinch collar can be a fantastic tool, but, IMHO, if the dog needs them sharpened, something may be wrong with the initial training. AGAIN, JMHO!

 

[Jerry Lyda]

Bob I agree with you there.If you have to do that to get a dog to behave then you need to get another dog. My $.02