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I don't intend on spaying my female, I don't want to spay or neuter until they are fully matured, and even then I like the option of breeding if the dog turns out to be an awesome dog! My male is un-neutered. I don't have a problem with preventing \"accidents\" from happening, but having never owned a female dog other than our family pet when I was 7 years old, I don't know what the signs of a bitch going into heat are. Naturally I would need to keep them seperated while my girl is in heat, but what are the signs that it's time to seperate the dogs?
 

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This would be great info for an informed user to post...I have to take my GSD through her first heat as some help with her early urinary tract infections, I would like to know when to start preparing for the heat. No other dogs, just want to keep the house clean and the walks more tightly controlled.
 

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Well easy enough if you´ve any males around...they´re getting very interested :lol:

First time in heat for a shepherd is somewhere between 7 mo. and 14 mo., usually when they´re about 1 yr old (is my experience). There in heat for 3 weeks. First 10 days you´ll find some blood, especially when they get up after laying down (sleeping). They usually clean up their own mess, and keep their genitals clean. Sometimes you have to attent them to the spot, but nature is wel balanced.
After aprox. 10 days it becomes dangerous, because they can be bred (dekrijp). She wil stand with her tail beside her so the male can penetrate her. After a week, she sometimes will bleed again. Then everthing is back to normal.

All my males and females are intact, why do you spay/neuter them so early? I only spay/neuter if it´s a medical emercency e.g. more then once not-real- pregnancy (don´t know english word: schijnzwangerschap), heavy infections like a whominfection or prostate infection.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Personally I don't like neutering or spaying, it's un-natural and I feel it affects the temprement and personality of the dogs. Cujo is un-neutered and unless he has a medical problem, that's how he is staying. I would hate to spay my puppy then when she is 3 find out she is an amazing working dog that should be bred, then regret listening to people who tell me she's going to get cancer if I don't spay her at 6 months.

Vet's in the US love to make money from the surgery so they tell you things like \"if you neuter your male puppy then he won't be aggressive, he won't mark his territory and pee on everything, he won't be dominant\" etc etc etc, it's all bullshit, I told my vet \"if I need surgery to do that then it must mean I'm not a good trainer!\". With females, there's percentages about reducing the risk of cancer if you spay a bitch before her first heat, Connie Sutherland knows the statistics -- but I'll take my chances with not spaying her unless there is a medical reason to do so. Maybe a dumb pet owner who will have accidental puppies should spay their bitch so they don't create more mutts to fill up the animal shelters, but if you're a responsible owner I don't see a problem. I also think the statistics are too skewed by unhealthy dogs and mutt's. Also pet owners don't want to deal with blood on their carpet. But who am I? I'm not a vet, so maybe I'm wrong, but I'll take my chances :)

Selena van Leeuwen said:
After aprox. 10 days it becomes dangerous, because they can be bred (dekrijp).
So the first few days of bleeding she can't get pregnant? So I can wait to see if she's bleeding, THEN seperate them?
 

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Thanks for this information, Selena. It's valuable! I just want to get it over with.

Neutering Annie is actually part of the contract I signed with my breeder, and something I'd do anyways. No interest in breeding, no interest in accidents, no interest in dealing with repetitive heat cycles, and only positives, health-wise, for Annie relative to my situation and my goals for her. It just makes the most sense for me and I certainly understand why others would not want to close that option for their own animals.
 

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Mike Schoonbrood said:
Selena van Leeuwen said:
After aprox. 10 days it becomes dangerous, because they can be bred (dekrijp).
So the first few days of bleeding she can't get pregnant? So I can wait to see if she's bleeding, THEN seperate them?
Yes you can wait till she starts bleeding. Oh forgot to tell, usually a female becomes in heat twice in 13 mo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Selena van Leeuwen said:
usually a female becomes in heat twice in 13 mo.
Interesting, I knew it was twice a year, didn't know 13 months.

Thanks for the info, makes it alot easier to manage 2 dogs knowing when I need to worry :lol:
 

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I dont like spaying or neutering either.I agree with Mike,it aint natural.Responsible owners dont need to neuter.Yes , vets here in the US push spaying and neutering like they are trying to sell you a used car.There are far too many irresponsible owners and way too many homeless mutts but IMO those people shouldnt own a dog anyway. :x

Greg
 

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Mike your male will be sure to let you know when she is comming into heat. :D :D The really be careful time is between 10-13 day of cycle. That is when she is most likely to conceice. I just went thru it with my female & my male really let me know when she was coming into heat. I knew about when she should be due & when to start keeping an eye on them. It may be a bit harder to pinpoint with a first heat cycle. So you may just have to watch you boy for him to let you know. My male is very well behaved & I was able to let them be together with me in the house thru out the whole time. (with my eyes on them of course) If he looked like he was going to try to mount her, I just told him no & he would stop. I only had to crate one of them for about 4 days in the middle of her cycle when it was just too much for him to lay down not fidget in the den in the evening when I was watching tv or on the computer. Up until that point & after it they were together with no problems. I had none of the screaming & barking & crying that you hear about with my male. Outside I kenneled him & let her be in the fenced yard so that they could still interact & play with the kennel seperating them. I of course also kept an eye on them so that he did jump out of my 6' kennel (he has jumped out of a 5' one several time before I had him). My female has not yet been bred ( he has sired about 4 litters) so she didn't know enough to try to mate with the kennel between them, which I have heard has been done. Again, I kept a good eye on them & it was all fine. The female usually will start to swell in the vulva area when they are coming into heat & they may start to spend more time licking that area also. They also may become flacky about things that they usually are not. My female will work just fine while in heat but is flacky about some things & is sometimes skiddish about things when the hormones surge. I guess that I was lucky with my male, he is a good guy. And Al, in case you are reading this....NO PUPPIES !!!!! I hope that this might help, Mike.
 

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I forgot to add that the first heat & even the next 1 or 2 may not be exactly 6 mo so keep an eye out. My female came in the 1st time at abouty a year & then the next time it was 4 months later & them the next time it was 7 months & the last one was 6 months. So you will need to pay attention to the signs. SHe is only not quite 2 1/2 yrs so she has only had 4 heat cycles. I also do not intend to spay her or neuter my male. I may spay her at some point after she is about 4,if I decide not to breed her, but I don't intend to neuter my male unless it becomes medically necessary.
 

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Yeah, she is a handfull or maybe even 2, alright. That's mygirl :D :D :D You must have been speaking with Al, he has seen her in action. I don't know if I could handle the combination of her extreme drives, hardness & then Elvis's civilness on top of that. At least she is pretty friendly for the most part, (not that I let people interact with her out in public) but she will alert on someone on her own when she feels it's necessary. I have a new digital camera that will do short videos if I can ever figure out how to do it. Took me forever just to learn how to take pics with it. I just should have gotten the point & shoot kind. Maybe Al can take one when we get together. I know he has the camera for it. That is if we can find some poor slob that wants to be on the other side of the sleeve from her so Al can take the video. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
lol I'd do it if you lived down here, but if you lived down here I wouldn't need the video :p I show friends video of my decoy work and they all think I'm insane. Funny. Maybe they don't feel comfortable having a dog attack them while laying on the ground, go figure...



I think that, based on what I hear from both y'alls dogs, you'd have some very cool puppies if you could pass on the right traits :lol:

[Edit: The dog in the pic is Jay Murphy's Malinois \"Dante\", to give credit where credit's due! :D]
 

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To bad, she'd love to nip on you. :lol: You could always take a trip to CT to visit your friends up here !!!!! :D Zasha would love that.
 

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Woody Taylor said:
.....Neutering Annie is actually part of the contract I signed with my breeder, and something I'd do anyways. No interest in breeding, no interest in accidents, no interest in dealing with repetitive heat cycles, and only positives, health-wise, for Annie relative to my situation and my goals for her. It just makes the most sense for me and I certainly understand why others would not want to close that option for their own animals.
Me too. This is something I've been rabid (haha) about, for PET dogs.

Now I am learning just what a difference there is between spaying a PET dog and a working dog. I also see that the repro cancer stats just might be affected some by quality of food and quality of life in general, and that often (don't hit me!) is related to the quality of training.......

So, while I'm still working on my knee-jerk reaction to leaving PET females intact, I'm learning that it isn't necessarily breeders only who have valid reasons for keeping females intact.

I do think, regardless of all this, that the current fad of doing neutering early (8 wks to 4 mos) instead of the older ideas about just in time to avert a 1st heat might demonstrate problems down the road. It's a new enough practice that I believe it hasn't been proven to be OK. And for males, although I see the point of doing it before sexual maturity (6-9 months) and the urge to roam, etc., I'm still reading about the advice to wait until age two for long-bone development reasons.

And maybe there are drive reasons, too. I don't know enough yet to comment, but I'm pluggin' away at the newest papers and books! :)
 

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Hey, maybe the vets are now pushing the earlier than ever spay/neutering to replace the lost income on the vactionations. Now that a good % of the general public has finaly wised up to the BS about their pets needing yearly shots, it has hit the vets right where it hurts....in the pocketbook :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
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I don't use the word \"ain't\" because ain't ain't a word, but I do agree with Mike and Greg, other than Greg's Oklahoma word choice :lol: . I did tons of research on pros and cons of neutering b/c Caleb MAY have a questionable hip, and that would be a condition for his replacement. I decided NO! Keep your puppy if you're gonna make me break (not fix) mine! 4x more likely to develop prostate cancer if neutered; if intact, may develop testicular cancer,but it is rarer than prostate and hardly ever fatal, unlike very aggressive prostate cancer. All-around bad for bones and connective tissues, and if my dog MAY have an issue, why on Earth would I do something KNOWN to cause more problems? Also, intact males are far less likely to develop cognitive difficulties and incontinence in later years than neutered males. I can't stand vets who give these BS lines about neutering; of COURSE neutered dogs don't get testicular cancer! :roll: If I cut off my head, I wouldn't get brain cancer either!
 

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Jenni Williams said:
I don't use the word \"ain't\" because ain't ain't a word
Aint that a double negative?

I love it when the vet asks if your dog is \"fixed\" yet?How is that fixing anything?The problem of stupid people who own dogs is bigger than ever, so no I dont think that is fixing the problem.

Greg
 
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