Working Dog Forums banner
21 - 40 of 52 Posts

· Premium Member
Joined
·
21,861 Posts
Also a lot of dominance work on the owners part. I go thru the door first! I feed you when you obey my down command! YOU don't rush out of your crate untill I give the ok!
There are to many people that shoudln't own a strong dog like this. That may be the final decision this person has to realize.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,304 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Connie, I think it's both dominant-aggressive and possessive aggression.
I copied the orginal post and here it is. Now maybe we can make more sence out of this behavior with all you guys help.

I have been having some dominance issues with my 14month old Crok grandson.
He isn't that bad yet, but i can see it starting to escalate so i want to nip it
now while hes still young and before it get really bad. It seems like he will
fight me just to fight me. He knows out, and outside his crate he will usually
out fairly well with out much choking off or anything else, but sometimes it
seems like he decides he doesn't want to let go and wont let go for nothing.
Ive tried choking him off when he gets like this and he will let his tongue go
blue and gasp for air but still wont let go, if i try to pinch his gums/ears/etc
hell start this screaming (assuming from the pain of being pinched) but will
just clamp down harder, I have tried to use other toys/balls (even the exact
same type- same ball with the same rope) and tried to use food etc. Everything
i have tried that have been suggested to me for outting works SOMETIMES but when
he gets in his mood it seems no
motivation, no correction no nothing is worth letting go. Also if he happens
to jump in his crate to fast and i dont get the toy/ball from him, he kind of
puts his head down and gives me this look like he's saying "just try to take it,
ill hurt you" Now needless to say, i am not scared of him, and reach in there
and take the ball/toy (well try too ;-)) He is also being more defiant in other
aspects like OB and general house manners/OB. He is also starting to jump on my
3.5yr old male for no reason (my other male is far from being an Alpha, but hes
not the Omega either, he seems to just not care about the pack order) which in
return will cause a fight. OK so my question is, WHAT do i do to correct this
behavior, before he gets older and more mature and becomes worse. I have had
people suggest getting physical with him to show my dominance, but i do not
think this will work because even as a puppy i have gotten pretty physical with
him ( issues dealing with the cats in
the house because he is a house dog) and it doesnt even phase him. TIA
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
20,208 Posts
Al Curbow said:
Something Connie said made me wonder...... can you guys hand the leash off to a stranger and walk away and your dogs will listen to that person and go on a nice walk or whatever? Is this a hijack? lol
AL
I bet they can't. All my own experience is with pets, not working dogs. I had the idea that working dogs' owners didn't have pack-leader issues.

So, no, Al, I'll bet I couldn't take your dog's leash and walk off with him. :lol: :lol:

And back to the topic:

Bob said "Also a lot of dominance work on the owners part. I go thru the door first! I feed you when you obey my down command! YOU don't rush out of your crate untill I give the ok!
There are to many people that shoudln't own a strong dog like this. That may be the final decision this person has to realize."
 

· Registered
Joined
·
528 Posts
For a quick fix....hang the sucker! :lol:

But I would probably just establish leadership a little more slowly and dont give him anything to have to let go of for awhile.
It sounds like the dog has more of a bond with the ball than it does with the owner.

Greg
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
20,208 Posts
Greg Long said:
For a quick fix....hang the sucker! :lol:

But I would probably just establish leadership a little more slowly and dont give him anything to have to let go of for awhile.
It sounds like the dog has more of a bond with the ball than it does with the owner.

Greg
And separate this dog from the other dog he is attacking. ("He is also starting to jump on my 3.5yr old male for no reason.")

Also, this quote: "Everything i have tried that have been suggested to me for outting works SOMETIMES," says she might be going from one idea to another, or that she's inconsistent in her demeanor with this dog.

Reading closely, she sounds (maybe) like the personality type two posters have said should not own this type of dog. Or at the very least, not without professional help. I think it was Greg who said once that this kind of problem needs pro help *in person* (as opposed to on the web).
 

· Banned
Joined
·
11,724 Posts
Quote:Something Connie said made me wonder...... can you guys hand the leash off to a stranger and walk away and your dogs will listen to that person and go on a nice walk or whatever? Is this a hijack? lol

Yes, my dogs will do this. I have had dogs that wouldn't in the past, and I do not want to go there again.

As far as the dominant dog thing, this really seems to be the owner, and all training should be directed at her. If you can fix her frame of mind, I think the rest will fall in as she gets better. No need to punish the dog for her transgressions as an owner.

As far as giving credit to Ceasar for the long walk, [-X better go back some. It, as far as I know belongs to Koehler. In fact, sorry kids that like to call him yank and crank, but you are watching Bill Koehlers work and theorys in action on his program. BK is my hero! Yet another person capitalizing on BK, and America hasn't a clue. :lol: :lol: :lol:



 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
21,861 Posts
If this owner can't control the dog, I can't imagine any scenarios given over a web page will be followed corectly. From the original post that Jerry put up, I see to much inconsistancy in how the dog is presently being handled. It's a way to simple answer, but I think this dog and owner are a bad matchup.
Dog pounds are filled up with animals that are just to much to handle.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
20,208 Posts
Jeff Oehlsen said:
.....As far as giving credit to Ceasar for the long walk, [-X better go back some. It, as far as I know belongs to Koehler. In fact, sorry kids that like to call him yank and crank, but you are watching Bill Koehlers work and theorys in action on his program. BK is my hero! Yet another person capitalizing on BK, and America hasn't a clue. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Let's hope it goes back more than that too. The soundest and most solid ideas do tend to be passed on from excellent practitioner to excellent practitioner.

It's just that the excellent practitioner I happened to see and be impressed with was Cesar Millan. Right place, right time.....
 

· Banned
Joined
·
1,395 Posts
It looks as if someone has advocated the alpha roll to use with this dog. I'm not a big fan of that for the reasons described below. This is an article that I've posted to a few places before.
++++++++++++++++++


The alpha roll was repopularized in the book 'How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend' by the Monks of New Skete which came out in the late 70's or early 80's. Before that it faded in and out of popularity and use.

I'm told that in the latest edition of this book the alpha roll is no longer included as a training tool.

To perform the roll you're supposed to grab the dog by the excess skin around his neck, force him backwards into a sit and then roll him to one side. Some trainers advocate rolling him all the way onto his back. The idea is that you're simulating something that dogs do to one another when the dominant dog is displaying his dominance to the submissive dog.

But it's just not so. If you watch some dogs at play, for example at a dog park or the zoo, or watch the Discovery Channel. Use a Video Camera (or record the TV) so you can play it back several times. You'll see what at first looks like an alpha roll but when you examine if carefully it's not even close. When dogs do this, the dominant dog doesn't force the submissive dog to do anything. It's the submissive dog who's doing all the work. The dominant dog puts his foot up on the submissive dog's shoulder or back and the submissive dog rolls himself under the dominant dog.

And so when you do the alpha roll thing you're doing something that's completely foreign to the dog, rather than something he's familiar with. You're showing him that you're bigger and stronger than him, but he already knows that. It's the action of a bully, not a fair and just leader.

Real dogs in the real world don't do anything like this. When a submissive dog rolls himself under the dominant dog it's because he's showing submission. This isn't a case of the dominant dog showing dominance. He's already done that merely by placing his foot on the other dog's shoulder or back and that's the reason that the submissive dog has gone down.

And so the alpha roll as dogs do it, isn't a display of dominance; it's one of submission, where the submissive dog is doing the work. It starts with the dominant dog putting a foot up but the rolling portion, the part that the alpha roll is simulating is done by the submissive dog. The alpha dog is only present by virtue of his personality, he's not rolling the other dog at all.

If you do this to the right dog (wrong dog) he'll eat you for your trouble. And since the closest thing to bite is your face, that's where you'll get it. It's hard to give an out command when the dog is holding you by the face!

For over 20 years I've been training some of the most dominant, most aggressive, most fearless dogs on the planet. I've never found the alpha roll necessary. I've done it once or twice when I was new and someone told me that I should. It didn't have the desired effect and after thinking about it and talking about it to the right folks, I discarded it.

Dogs almost NEVER submissively pee to other dogs, especially members of their own pack. That's reserved almost exclusively for their humans who, without realizing it put the dog into an overly submissive position and the dog has no choice. Some dogs extremely low in the pack pecking order, the omega dog may show submissive urination every time that a dominant dog (that's every other dog in the pack) approaches, but that's still a very rare display.

Your height already provides a cue to the dog that you're dominant. There are some trainers who will tell you to never let your dog stand over you but I think that you need to permit this once in a while. Some trainers tell you to NEVER allow it. But if you think about what I do and how it gets done, training and working police service dogs, you'll realize that it's good to, once in a while get on the ground with your dog and play with him as dogs play together.

Let me paint a picture for you. Imagine the type of handler who's been trained that he has to alpha roll his dog once a week to remain the alpha. Also imagine that he's been trained never to let his dog be on top of him. The handler gets into a fight, and like most fights it winds up on the ground. He calls his dog for assistance and as the dog runs to the scene he sees the 'alpha dog' on the ground, someplace he's never seen him. He remembers that this 'alpha dog' has been rolling him every week since they've been together and maintaining his alpha position with brute force. He sees this alpha dog fighting with a complete stranger, someone who's never hurt him or done anything to him before. Do you think it's possible that he'll think that NOW is a good time to rise to the top of the pack? Could be!

Wouldn't it be better if that dog had been lead by a fair and just pack leader who didn't use physical force to maintain his position? Since the #2 dog has rights that the #3 or #4 doesn't, wouldn't it be better if the dog thought of himself as the #2 dog in the pack not just as any subordinate animal.

If you alpha roll your dog consistently he'll become afraid of you. That's not a good relationship, particularly if you want the dog to work protection for you. He'll do it but you might find him "attached" to you occasionally. I think that the best relationship between the handler and the dog is one of mutual trust and respect. A dog that's rolled won't trust the handler, he'll fear him. This may not show up in the form of the dog cowering from the handler, except in extreme circumstances. But there other, much more subtle ways it shows up.

Want to be an Alpha? Begin by acting like one. Stand up tall and act like a leader. Notice that most dogs are submissive to a good trainer just by him walking onto the field. That's because he knows how to stand, carry himself and talk as a leader. He hasn't alpha rolled your dog. He hasn't kicked your dog's butt, but your dog knows, at a glance, who the alpha is. Use a normal voice. When adult dogs play with other adult dogs they use a certain tone of voice (bark). When puppies play with adults or other puppies pitched they use a high pitched yip. If you use a high pitched voice when playing with or praising your adult dog how do you think he thinks of you? As a mature adult capable of leading him? Or as an immature pack member? Now I'm not saying that he'll immediately become alpha if you praise or talk to him in a high pitched voice but I am saying that you're sending a mixed message to him. One that can put some doubts in his mind as to your exact position in the pack.

Being accepted as the alpha doesn't mean that you're the biggest, baddest one in the pack. Anyone who teaches that really doesn't understand what it means to be alpha. In human packs, without the politics, often it's NOT the biggest or strongest one who leads. It's the one who exhibits "leadership qualities." In dog packs it's the same way.

Another part of being alpha has to do with food. In the wild the alpha leads the hunt. He decides which animal the pack will kill and when the eating will begin. Generally you provide the food for your dog so that helps him think of you as the alpha. I suggest that when you get a new dog you spend a couple of weeks hand feeding him. That establishes, even more than just putting down a food bowl, that you're providing his food. Don't let him crowd in and 'demand' the food. Make him stay at a respectful distance and wait for you to give it to him, one handful at a time.

Another way to be fair and just is to be fair with your correction level. The Ecollar is perfect for this because it allows you to dial in exactly the level of correction that your dog needs. Not too high and not too low. It's difficult for the average handler to consistently give the exact level of correction that a dog needs with a leash and conventional training collar.

Play is another way to get this but not the form of play that has the handler throwing a ball for his dog. Watch the Discovery Channel or spend a few hours at the zoo watching wild dogs play. They run, they bump shoulders, they throw hips into one another. Their interaction is quite physical.

Another way to establish dominance and one of my favorites is through yielding. I stole the concept from someone who stole it from horse trainers. Yielding is based on the idea that a submissive animal will move out of the way of a dominant animal. Almost ritualistically the dominant animal will force the submissive animal to give way, even if he doesn't need to. It's just a reminder.

To do this have the dog on leash and start walking into him. Going head to head is probably best, at first. Don't give any commands, just head towards him. When you get real close start quietly saying "move, move, move," Don't kick him and don't bump into him unless it's absolutely necessary. What you are trying to do is to force him to move by the power of your personality.

As soon as he does move, step back and praise him lightly. Not enough to break his concentration, but enough so that he knows he got something right. You should see a relaxation of tension in the dog's body. Think of your forward motion as applying pressure. Pressure that the dog can relieve by moving away. At first just one or two steps will relieve the pressure, but as you progress he has to move more to gain relief.

As the training progresses you can approach from off to one side, then directly to one side, then from the rear quarter and finally from the rear. When you start this have him move several times in a row. Once he's caught on you can go to about ten times a day.

This is so subtle that many people believe that it won't have any affect on the dog, particularly one who's very dominant. But it will have more and better effect than a dozen alpha rolls. And it will establish your position with VERY little chance of a handler challenge or an attack on the handler.

If you're going to do an alpha roll you'd better pick the dog you do this on carefully and you'd better make sure that you can kick his ass. You'd also better be ready for a trip to the ER, because sooner or later you're going to miss.

It's really too bad that some people are still caught up in using force all the time for all of their training. It's not necessary. It's hard on the dogs, and it's hard on the handler. AND most importantly it doesn't give a good a working relationship with the dog as more subtle, but still effective methods.


Copyright © 2006, Lou Castle
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
20,208 Posts
Lou Castle on the alpha presence

This is very good, of course, but for me, I'm particularly excited to see some prominence given to these two items: The demeanor of a real pack leader (which comes long before any direct interaction with the dog) and the "yielding" (the submissive animal being reminded to yield ground to the dominant animal).

Maybe you would like to post everything below the intro about the thread to the "Articles" part of the site.

Thanks!
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
21,861 Posts
Excellent article Lou!
I'm glad you commented on the "not letting your dog stand over you". Although my GSD is social, he can be somewhat pushy with those outside the family. He's pleasantly submissive with me and my wife. He LOVES IT when I fall down, let him pounce on me and win the tug from me. There is absolutely no concern on my part about him becomming dominant with me. He just turns into a 80lb, wiggly puppy when we play that game.
I do, however, have a pain in the a$$ JRT that will take advantage of the situation if I let him go to far. :lol: :wink:
 

· Registered
Joined
·
398 Posts
Okay, I'm seriously new to dog training, but reading that original post from the dog's owner I couldn't help but think, "Does this dog REALLY know his OB commands? Enough to be corrected for not obeying?" If he isn't outing objects consistently (she says he outs "wihtout too much choking out" outside of his crate, which I take to mean that he's not consistently outing without correction), does he actually know the out? Or any other command for that matter?

It just seemed to me that maybe he doesn't see his handler as a fair pack leader since she seems to be correcting for someting he may not actually know, and correcting rather aggressively (why choke out -- I take that to mean she's using a choke collar rather than a prong). Isn't part of being a pack leader maintaining your role as a fair and just leader? I know I read when my puppy was younger that you should use the least amount of correction necessary to get your point across to the dog b/c they do have a sense of justice and will see uncalled for/overly aggressive/improper correction as unfair (and that this is sometimes a source of handler aggression).

At any rate, she does have a problem...
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
20,208 Posts
Stacia Porter said:
Okay, I'm seriously new to dog training, but reading that original post from the dog's owner I couldn't help but think, "Does this dog REALLY know his OB commands? Enough to be corrected for not obeying?" If he isn't outing objects consistently (she says he outs "wihtout too much choking out" outside of his crate, which I take to mean that he's not consistently outing without correction), does he actually know the out? Or any other command for that matter?

It just seemed to me that maybe he doesn't see his handler as a fair pack leader since she seems to be correcting for someting he may not actually know, and correcting rather aggressively (why choke out -- I take that to mean she's using a choke collar rather than a prong). Isn't part of being a pack leader maintaining your role as a fair and just leader? I know I read when my puppy was younger that you should use the least amount of correction necessary to get your point across to the dog b/c they do have a sense of justice and will see uncalled for/overly aggressive/improper correction as unfair (and that this is sometimes a source of handler aggression).....At any rate, she does have a problem...
You're right, Stacia: The handler has a problem (IMO). Several members pointed out that the training tips needed to be directed to her more than the dog, and that the dog just might be a bad match for her abilities.

After I read her actual post, I thought (along with others) that she needed professional help, in person (not on the 'net).
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,304 Posts
Discussion Starter · #36 ·
I agree with you ladies that the problem starts with the owner. Now she has a problem, right? This could have been corrected long ago.

Now back to the situation of this dog. Hindsight is 20/20 now what can be done to fix it before this dog hurts someone? Well the first thing is to find it a new owner, right. But this women has the dog so let's go with what we have.

Lou, everything you said was right on. Please don't think I'm being disrespectful or argumentive, I'm not trying to be. In your post you talked about a submissive dog vs. the alfa dog. This is not the problem we're having here. This is a 14 month old that clearly is not submissive. He doesn't respect the alfa ( human ) and is trying to take over and have things his way, dominant. If he did this to an alfa dog the alfa wouldn't put his paw on him and wait for him to lay down and become submissive. The alfa would not do a thing but kick his Butt. He would win or loose. Him being 14 months old is not to old for him to be put in his place, fairly of course. If they wait much longer they could loose this dog. This dog is not mature as of now and now is the time to use a good old fashion compulsion correction, fairly of course. What I mean by that is just enough so that he understands the pecking order. If it's on his back then so be it, what ever it takes. When this dog matures heaven help anyone that tries to deal with him. :cry:

Ok I'll sit back and get my butt handed to me but this is how I feel about this dog.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
528 Posts
Whether the dog understands what "out" means or not doesnt matter if the dog is being a butthead.

A dog can learn the meaning of a command after just 2 or3 times if someone knows what they ae doing.

I told someone else that I would have to meet the owner in person to really make a judgement call.Just off whats been said on the net the biggest issue is the handler's lack of knowledge and lack of determination in establishing leadership.

Bottom line is , put this dog with a person that knows what to do and problem solved. :wink:

Greg
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
20,208 Posts
Jerry Lyda said:
.....This dog is not mature as of now and now is the time to use a good old fashion compulsion correction, fairly of course. What I mean by that is just enough so that he understands the pecking order. If it's on his back then so be it, what ever it takes. When this dog matures heaven help anyone that tries to deal with him. :cry: .
But (and a big but), in the case of an alpha roll, even if there was agreement on using it (and there isn't), who does this? That owner who has zero control and no idea of how to manage the dog (from her own post)? Heck, no! Even behaviorists who do sometimes use this technique with dominant-aggressive dogs, at least the ones I read and have seen work, maintain that it's a maneuver only for the experienced professional to decide on and to administer.

From her post, it seems to me that she needs a professional no matter what the method, or tools, or correction.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
20,208 Posts
Greg Long said:
Whether the dog understands what "out" means or not doesnt matter if the dog is being a butthead....A dog can learn the meaning of a command after just 2 or3 times if someone knows what they ae doing....I told someone else that I would have to meet the owner in person to really make a judgement call.Just off whats been said on the net the biggest issue is the handler's lack of knowledge and lack of determination in establishing leadership......Bottom line is , put this dog with a person that knows what to do and problem solved. :wink: ....Greg
Sorry, Greg......We were posting at the same time!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,304 Posts
Discussion Starter · #40 ·
I agree Connie, this lady can't, if so this problem wouldn't be. Maybe the thing for a person like this with a dog like this is to sell, or whatever, to someone that can correct this behavior. What will happen next if this keeps going on will not be good for anyone and not good for the dog / breed.
I'm through now and thanks to everyone and thanks for lending your knowledge. ( I still want to hear more though.) :lol:
 
21 - 40 of 52 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top