[Connie Sutherland]

On another board there is a dog GSD that is 14 months old. His bloodline has a lot of this issue. The owners can't get him to out and he grawls at them for trying to take any object that he has. What would you do to correct this problem or do you think it is a problem? Thanks and this should be a good topic.

Yes, it is a problem, IMO. This URL below pretty much explains how I have managed this with someone else's dogs before.

This applies to pet dogs who do NOT exhibit other signs of aggression.

First I took the dog for a looooong walk and the dog was fed. Now the dog is not full of frustrated energy and is tired and happy. Then I practiced trading the toy for an especially wonderful treat (bacon) and praising like a nut with each trade. I did this in front of the owners so they would know what routine to continue until the possession aggression was under control.

In both cases, the problem arose with all the dogs' toys, but if I had been confronted with just one particular toy causing the problem, I would have confiscated it.

BTW, these two dogs (different households) were *not* aggressive in other ways. There would have been a lot more to this answer if they had been!

From http://www.VeterinaryPartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=157&A=1462&S=1
about possession (food, treat, toy) aggression:

7. Do the prevention exercises with your dog's toys, too. Have an adult ask the dog for the toy, gently take it, look at it, give the dog a treat, and then return the toy. Eventually include the children, but maintain a high level of adult supervision when you do this, and teach the kids not to take the dog's toys at other times. If a dog shows a strong tendency to guard any particular toy, that toy must be removed. Better the dog lose the enjoyment of a toy than to lose the dog's life when the dog becomes too dangerous. You may be able to allow the dog to enjoy it strictly in a private place such as the dog's crate.

8. Never chase a dog down to get something the dog has stolen. This triggers the same instincts as food guarding, and also teaches your dog to run from you. Condition your dog instead to bring things to you for great trades, plus praise and other rewards.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

P.S. The loooooong walk first is something I learned from Cesar Millan whenever the issue is one of aggression, dominance, etc.

The dog has both released frustrated energy and been reminded of his pack position.

I learned this a long time ago from CM, and his new book also emphathizes the importance of the walk.

P.P.S. I will be interested in what experienced handlers will have to say about possession/food aggression. I think it might play a big role in dog bites involving kids. I hope this thread grows. Good subject, Jerry, IMO!

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Hi Connie, isn't the long walk more about control and mental stimulation than tiring the dog out? I mean i can walk my dogs till legs fall off and they're not going to be tired, maybe thirsty but not tired. Maybe a long brisk bike ride would do it but not walking.
AL

Well, I admit that the dogs I help with aren't generally working dogs, and they are not all big dogs, even -- maybe 50-50 small and large. So the dog *might* be tired out from a looooong walk, but the goal (in my P.S.) is that "The dog has both released frustrated energy and been reminded of his pack position."

What I want is a dog who has not been building tension and energy all day locked indoors.

So yes, Al, you are absolutely correct.

And if you meant about tiring the dog in general, every day, I agree 100% with you that while the long walk is essential, so is whatever it takes to tire out the dog.


*99% of the time it's with pack leader issues

 

[Connie Sutherland]

I didn't mean to bring the post off topic so i'll start a new topic ,
AL

I did! :>)

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Sorry Connie I just don't understand the long walk thing. Help me understand.
Thanks.

OK. The long walk thing is NOT directly about the possession-aggression.

Say a neighbor or someone is my dog's club asks for help with her dog who is growling when the handler tries to take something away from him, and she wants help.

She says: QUOTE: He growls at me for trying to take any object that he has. What would you do to correct this problem or do you think it is a problem? END QUOTE

This dog is basically a stranger to me.

The first thing I do is go there, meet the dog, and take the dog for a long walk. I don't mean around the block; I mean 1/2 hour or 45 minutes.

The dog has now been introduced to the fact that he won't lead me, as we left his house with me in front and as we walked with him never allowed to pull or lead me, and as he was given leash corrections if needed.

Now the dog knows that he's not allowed to lead me, and if he was filled with frustrated nervous energy, some of it has been released. He also has been with me long enough to have started a habit of obeying me.

Then I would start swapping possessions and teaching him that giving up his possession gets him good stuff in return.

As Greg said, this dog needs a firm leader, and IMO, the leadership role is reinforced over and over every day during the walk, which is what is hardwired into their brains (IMO) to do all day long, every day: follow the alpha.

HOWEVER, I also said that if the dog was aggressive in other ways, my post about it would be much longer. I didn't have info like "He's really bad." It sounds like he has other issues besides growling over a toy. (There *are* dogs who aren't dominant in any other way who have possession aggression.)

You'd probably get much more detailed (and way firmer) advice here if we had read the other thread where the dog was described.

What I said (and I mentioned this) was based on a dog whose only issue was over his toy ("things").

"Don't do that, please" is not in my dog-speak repertoire.

This: "This dog is really bad. Worse than my first post indicated. " will get you way different answers from swapping toys.

Still, though, I do start with a walk, with me holding the leash, when I'm asked to help with a dog I don't know, for the reasons above.

When you talked about correcting him on the other thread, are you saying he is showing dominance and aggression and that when you mentioned correcting him, people said no, because he'd get worse??

 

[Connie Sutherland]

It occurs to me that your title should have clued me that you didn't mean just a possession-aggression issue!

 

[Connie Sutherland]

....... I agree with all of this but to me the walk is just the very beginning of a program to fix this problem.

Also,this isnt a "take him for a few walks and then he's fine" thing.This must be an ongoing thing to really work.

The only thing different I would do is not trade anything.I would take permanent possession over the object and give-take whenever the urge strikes me.
Definitely the walking is one of the first things to do.Along with obstacle work. :wink:

Greg

Yes, you're right about the trade. I'm afraid I had adolescent-growling-over-toy in my brain. I was wrong about that part, although it worked for me twice. It worked for me because I was dealing with generally submissive young dogs (pets) who were trying on the possession-aggression for size.

You are correct that the pack leader has to claim everything. Nothing belongs to the dog.

I'm glad you agree about the walk. It's crucial for me. OTOH, I have certainly met trainers who never heard of anything so time-wasting!

When I work with other people's dogs, it's not really sit-heel-down-come; it's lack of leadership in the owner.

And you're also right about the ongoing-ness of teaching the dog his position in the pack. The walk is part of the big package, in which the dog never wins, in any disagreement with the owner, over anything.

What's obstacle work? Like agility?

 

[Connie Sutherland]

My suggestion would be for someone else to do the initial training/corrections on this dog if she/he isn't strond enough to control it, as you mentioned. AT LEAST in the company of someone that can control the dog. A prong could possibly just fire up a tough dog. If it were me, I'd string the dog up, but that in itself depends on the character of the dog. The possessivness isn't necessarily true aggression. Just an aggressive responsive to weak owner.

Bob,

If this was just one manifestation of a dominant dog, as opposed to just possession-aggression, I think you would be correct about choking out the dog, if necessary. And I think you have approximately 900 times as much different-dog experiences as I have.

As the thread progresses, it sounds like a dominant-aggressive dog more than just a dog who's protecting his resources and needs to quit that.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Something Connie said made me wonder...... can you guys hand the leash off to a stranger and walk away and your dogs will listen to that person and go on a nice walk or whatever? Is this a hijack? lol
AL

I bet they can't. All my own experience is with pets, not working dogs. I had the idea that working dogs' owners didn't have pack-leader issues.

So, no, Al, I'll bet I couldn't take your dog's leash and walk off with him. :lol: :lol:

And back to the topic:

Bob said "Also a lot of dominance work on the owners part. I go thru the door first! I feed you when you obey my down command! YOU don't rush out of your crate untill I give the ok!
There are to many people that shoudln't own a strong dog like this. That may be the final decision this person has to realize."

 

[Connie Sutherland]

For a quick fix....hang the sucker! :lol:

But I would probably just establish leadership a little more slowly and dont give him anything to have to let go of for awhile.
It sounds like the dog has more of a bond with the ball than it does with the owner.

Greg

And separate this dog from the other dog he is attacking. ("He is also starting to jump on my 3.5yr old male for no reason.")

Also, this quote: "Everything i have tried that have been suggested to me for outting works SOMETIMES," says she might be going from one idea to another, or that she's inconsistent in her demeanor with this dog.

Reading closely, she sounds (maybe) like the personality type two posters have said should not own this type of dog. Or at the very least, not without professional help. I think it was Greg who said once that this kind of problem needs pro help *in person* (as opposed to on the web).

 

[Connie Sutherland]

.....As far as giving credit to Ceasar for the long walk, [-X better go back some. It, as far as I know belongs to Koehler. In fact, sorry kids that like to call him yank and crank, but you are watching Bill Koehlers work and theorys in action on his program. BK is my hero! Yet another person capitalizing on BK, and America hasn't a clue. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Let's hope it goes back more than that too. The soundest and most solid ideas do tend to be passed on from excellent practitioner to excellent practitioner.

It's just that the excellent practitioner I happened to see and be impressed with was Cesar Millan. Right place, right time.....

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Lou Castle on the alpha presence

This is very good, of course, but for me, I'm particularly excited to see some prominence given to these two items: The demeanor of a real pack leader (which comes long before any direct interaction with the dog) and the "yielding" (the submissive animal being reminded to yield ground to the dominant animal).

Maybe you would like to post everything below the intro about the thread to the "Articles" part of the site.

Thanks!

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Okay, I'm seriously new to dog training, but reading that original post from the dog's owner I couldn't help but think, "Does this dog REALLY know his OB commands? Enough to be corrected for not obeying?" If he isn't outing objects consistently (she says he outs "wihtout too much choking out" outside of his crate, which I take to mean that he's not consistently outing without correction), does he actually know the out? Or any other command for that matter?

It just seemed to me that maybe he doesn't see his handler as a fair pack leader since she seems to be correcting for someting he may not actually know, and correcting rather aggressively (why choke out -- I take that to mean she's using a choke collar rather than a prong). Isn't part of being a pack leader maintaining your role as a fair and just leader? I know I read when my puppy was younger that you should use the least amount of correction necessary to get your point across to the dog b/c they do have a sense of justice and will see uncalled for/overly aggressive/improper correction as unfair (and that this is sometimes a source of handler aggression).....At any rate, she does have a problem...

You're right, Stacia: The handler has a problem (IMO). Several members pointed out that the training tips needed to be directed to her more than the dog, and that the dog just might be a bad match for her abilities.

After I read her actual post, I thought (along with others) that she needed professional help, in person (not on the 'net).

 

[Connie Sutherland]

.....This dog is not mature as of now and now is the time to use a good old fashion compulsion correction, fairly of course. What I mean by that is just enough so that he understands the pecking order. If it's on his back then so be it, what ever it takes. When this dog matures heaven help anyone that tries to deal with him. .

But (and a big but), in the case of an alpha roll, even if there was agreement on using it (and there isn't), who does this? That owner who has zero control and no idea of how to manage the dog (from her own post)? Heck, no! Even behaviorists who do sometimes use this technique with dominant-aggressive dogs, at least the ones I read and have seen work, maintain that it's a maneuver only for the experienced professional to decide on and to administer.

From her post, it seems to me that she needs a professional no matter what the method, or tools, or correction.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Whether the dog understands what "out" means or not doesnt matter if the dog is being a butthead....A dog can learn the meaning of a command after just 2 or3 times if someone knows what they ae doing....I told someone else that I would have to meet the owner in person to really make a judgement call.Just off whats been said on the net the biggest issue is the handler's lack of knowledge and lack of determination in establishing leadership......Bottom line is , put this dog with a person that knows what to do and problem solved. :wink: ....Greg

Sorry, Greg......We were posting at the same time!

 

[Connie Sutherland]

I agree Connie, this lady can't, if so this problem wouldn't be. Maybe the thing for a person like this with a dog like this is to sell, or whatever, to someone that can correct this behavior. What will happen next if this keeps going on will not be good for anyone and not good for the dog / breed.
I'm through now and thanks to everyone and thanks for lending your knowledge. ( I still want to hear more though.) :lol:

Jerry, what you say here might be the solution. Of course, she'd be upfront about the issues (but it would be readily apparent anyway), and she'd have to make sure the dog went to someone with dominant-dog experience.

You think she won't go the professional-help route, I take it.

P.S. My own experience with dominant-aggressive dogs is limited. Others here are far more experienced. But I've had enough to feel that her post indicates that she probably isn't the person to handle this dog.

It's really hard from one message, though. Who knows the whole story from a post on a forum?

 

[Connie Sutherland]

......is he really dominant or does he just not know where he places in the pack and is therefore trying to figure it out with his behavior? Are there other posts from this woman that elaborate on his behavior? Does possession agression always stem from dominance? Has he done other things that mark him as a dominant rather than a confused dog without a good pack leader? If he's trying to be the leader b/c his handler is not displaying proper alpha behaviors, does that still make him a dominant dog, or is there another description in that situation?.....Just wondering for my own information on the topic...

Obviously, I can't give you any opinions about the dog Jerry presents, never having seen him and having no knowledge of other posts, etc.

I can offer a couple of general opinions about a couple of your other questions. (I have some experience with dominant dogs, btw, but others on this board have much more.)

Dominant and aggressive are not the same thing. Possession aggression doesn't have to stem from dominance. There's lots of aggression that has nothing to do with dominance. (Not to say that it CAN'T be stemming from dominance!) A dog rescued from the streets where he's been scrounging for garbage might well exhibit a lot of food-aggression when he first has regular food, whether or not he's naturally dominant.

I think most dogs are not naturally dominant; nature doesn't work that way. But a few are, again as nature would dictate for pack animals.

But the measures which a dog who perceives that there is no strong pack leader in his pack (household) will take probably depend on the dog, on his level of dominance.

This is something that (I believe) is apparent early on, maybe by not taking no for an answer when he wants to play, or by climbing on or acting in charge of the owner, the furniture, the toys, the activities, etc. (This is a big subject!) I believe, and again, maybe it's just less experience than others here, that treating a dominant dog with firmness from the beginning can eliminate the perceived need down the road to treat him with violence. Both Bob and Lou gave a lot of examples of ways to demonstrate your pack leadership to the dog. These actions (by the pack leader) are good, period, but when the dog demonstrates dominant tendencies, they are very important.

Your questions about whether this dog is a born-dominant dog who hasn't been taught his position in the pack -- we can't know that from the info we have.

I will be interested in the answers about this from people who have trained dozens (or hundreds!) of dogs. And, of course, from the ones who have trained a few, too!

Good thread, Jerry.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Tried to post this in the articles thread but I guess only moderators are allowed to reply to Lou's alpha article?

Anyway, I like the article, Lou. Thanks for sharing. I did want to say that the New Skete Monks do more than "drop" the reference to and endorsement of the alpha roll in later additions of their book...they pretty much say that they were dead wrong to advocate it and warn against trying it. I don't have it in front of me so I can't quote directly.

No, Woody, the articles are set up to be articles, as opposed to discussions. But Lou's reply was first posted here as a response, so you **are* replying to it! :lol:

And you are quoting the New Skete Monks pretty closely!

 

[Connie Sutherland]

dominant-born dogs

Well, I had this question all ready to type, but Jeff and Mike pretty much answered it.

I believe that a dog who's born dominant will not become a problem in the hands of a good pack leader owner.

I'm totally ready to accept answers like "Well, you don't have enough experience with such-and-such dogs..." and so on.

What I base this on IS limited. It's my observation that every problem dog I've seen had a crappy handler/owner (backwards evidence, I realize), and on the relative ease I have experienced with getting submission from a pet whose owner thinks the dog is hopelessly dominant and aggressive.

These are NOT dogs who have killed, or tried to, so I have NOT had that experience. So far, though, I'm inclining toward thinking that those dogs too could have been OK in the hands of a good pack leader.

I would love to hear the opposition. I'm here to learn.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Agree also! My one comment would be that I would much rather work with a really tough dog then one that was agressive because of serious nerve/fear issues. BOTH require a controlled environment, but I just have no use for a nerve/fear based dog.

Gotcha, Bob. I meant to be clear (but wasn't really) that I referred only to dominant dogs, and not dogs who are aggressive because of fear/nerves.