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I haven't "retired" from this forum yet and maybe never will but would like the opportunity to explain the use of the "sharpened" prong.

As someone mentioned on here, one could imagine what a "yank with the fursaver could do" just imagine what a "yank" with the "sharpened prong" could do. "blood, scars, etc.". And what does a "yank with the fursaver achieve?

This is the crux of the problem - one does not yank a sharpened prong. One treats it gently. In all the time I used one and most of my colleagues, we "tweaked" the prong on a short soft lead without loop in order to call to attention the dog, having attained 11-13 months, to forget his hormones when working obedience and look up at us and in this second and this second only, the prong was released and the verbal praise was said.

We also put the prong on the dog when we let him run free, to assure him it was nothing bad. We also put the prong on before we drove to the club, not that the dog associated "prong - training". However during my training I observed that some disregarded this and found that using the prong without getting the dog used to it resulted in a better performance. Not my idea.

I was also advised at a seminar by a very well known IPO competitor (Worlds) to place a chain in between the sharpened prong links to loosen it so that when the dog was in the car, he was not reminded every second that he was wearing a "sharpened prong"

The corrections done by the "sharpened prong" were quick, painless (no more than someone taking your blood at a surgery.)

It's the hand that the delivers the pain, not the tool that the hand is using. This refers to loop, soft collar, fur saver, prong (sharpened or blunt), teletakt, etc.

I hope that this will clarify a surely misconcepted opinion in the States that we in Europe are not evil and not trying to find a very quick training result. Quick for the dog to learn, obviously, but not a short training to success.

I will add that no dog of mine ever lost blood to a sharpened prong - I always checked even if I resisted trying it out on hubby's neck!
 

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Excellent explanation!
My reason for not using it is simply understand my "own" training temperament. One of the major reasons I turned heavily to reward based marking training almost exclusively. The great majority of my competition experience has been with terriers and more so, Koehler was what I grew up with. It DOES work but I could get very frustrated in the past and I'll just say that terriers show me they could take heavy "punishment". I look back I realize that many of these dogs could have easily responded easier with making training a game. I didn't! I got very good results with that training then. I've gone to the extreme with markers and reward based, no physical correction to find out how far I could take. I have no problem adding corrections today, if needed, but I've also seen how much less they are needed when I use both. The level of correction has also gone WAAAY down.
I still have no plans of using a sharpened pinch. That doesn't mean it couldn't possible be a properly used tool.
This is one of those posts that can lead in many wrong directions. If anyone wishes to comment please do but with though and common sense.
 

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Thank you both!!

If I ever cry wolf again - shoot me.
 

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Excellent explanation!
My reason for not using it is simply understand my "own" training temperament. One of the major reasons I turned heavily to reward based marking training almost exclusively. The great majority of my competition experience has been with terriers and more so, Koehler was what I grew up with. It DOES work but I could get very frustrated in the past and I'll just say that terriers show me they could take heavy "punishment". I look back I realize that many of these dogs could have easily responded easier with making training a game. I didn't! I got very good results with that training then. I've gone to the extreme with markers and reward based, no physical correction to find out how far I could take. I have no problem adding corrections today, if needed, but I've also seen how much less they are needed when I use both. The level of correction has also gone WAAAY down.
I still have no plans of using a sharpened pinch. That doesn't mean it couldn't possible be a properly used tool.
This is one of those posts that can lead in many wrong directions. If anyone wishes to comment please do but with though and common sense.
Bob, Its use in the protection phase was invaluable. Not only are hard dogs not so easy to contain but dogs with an extreme drive to nail the helper, come what may. They are not "hard" in relationship" to their handler, i.e. no growling whilst heeling or curling of lip. They just want to fight and they seem to ignore that they are supposed to be under the handler's control. I'm not talking about "drive crazy" dogs, I'm talking about dogs with one aim and that is to fight the helper.

If anyone can tell me how to handle such a dog in protection without using correction but just positively, I would welcome it.
 

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And back to:
Bob, Its use in the protection phase was invaluable. Not only are hard dogs not so easy to contain but dogs with an extreme drive to nail the helper, come what may. They are not "hard" in relationship" to their handler, i.e. no growling whilst heeling or curling of lip. They just want to fight and they seem to ignore that they are supposed to be under the handler's control. I'm not talking about "drive crazy" dogs, I'm talking about dogs with one aim and that is to fight the helper.

If anyone can tell me how to handle such a dog in protection without using correction but just positively, I would welcome it.
 

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Was the dog in Old Yeller trained by Koehler too? ;-)
 

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I've not had that type dog that hard to contain dog but I've seem them at the club I belonged to. With the bite as the actual reward it can be amazing how quickly they figure that out. Obviously a clearer headed dog will respond quicker.
I wont go out on a limb and say it would be as easy with the type dog your discussing. I've seen to many pro positive ( I hate the connotations of that word) that will swear by absolutely no correction with ANY dog. I do believe it can go a long way to reduce corrections though. ;)
I also believe that"hard to contain dog" can sometimes be attributed to the handler but I don't believe that's the case in your situation.
I've had some fantastic earth dogs that spent their waking lives in the quest to destroy critters. I could also call these same dogs off of deer, rabbits or any thing else when they were at a dead run. Maybe not the same as a dog on people but I've not seen much of anything that can match the drives of a working terrier once it has.........success with critters, large or small.
Gotta head out now and pick up the gkids from school now. One Friday a month early out for teacher's meeting and Pop be da man! :lol:
 

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Any one seen the movie "A Dogs Life" was one of my favourite doggie movies was about a Bull Terrier that fought in the pits then got a new life and went on to a happy ending :) Im pretty sure Bill Koehler trained all the dogs in that movie too im not sure if it was disney or not it may have been.
 

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The dog playing Old Yeller was trained by Rudd Weatherwax.
My favorite scene is when Old Yeller charges and fights off a black bear to save the boy.
It's speculated that Old Yeller was a Ladner Black Mouth Yellow Cur, from Texas.
 

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Rudd Weatherwax also trained all the Collies that played Lassie in the TV shows and Movies.
Re: Koehler

The training is like the cars of the 60's. A 62 Chevy might get from NYC to LA BUT I'd rather have a 2013 Chevy with air conditioning and Cruise Control and full power and anti lock disc brakes etc, etc.
 

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If we're talking old school there's always Chuck Eisenmann and London, the Littlest Hobo.

I read his book Stop, Sit and Think years ago... not sure it influenced how I train, but might be worth a reread.
 

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Rudd Weatherwax also trained all the Collies that played Lassie in the TV shows and Movies.
Re: Koehler

The training is like the cars of the 60's. A 62 Chevy might get from NYC to LA BUT I'd rather have a 2013 Chevy with air conditioning and Cruise Control and full power and anti lock disc brakes etc, etc.

I stand corrected! In looking it up on the web it comments that Koehler trained for all the Disney movies but one. It didn't mention Old Yeller by name but "just one" I'm assuming Yeller is that "one"

Brad, yes I've seen it but it's been 25 -30 yrs ago. Black and white movie if I recall. I believe I rented it when home video first became popular.

In the book Old Yeller was thought to be a Black Mouth Cur. In reality no one knows because he was a shelter dog.
I had a mutt that could have passed for his double except for Yellar's lop ear. I also had the litter mate of this dog and she looked like a smooth Collie.....and the mom looked like hound. Go figure!:-k
 

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I stand corrected! In looking it up on the web it comments that Koehler trained for all the Disney movies but one. It didn't mention Old Yeller by name but "just one" I'm assuming Yeller is that "one"

Brad, yes I've seen it but it's been 25 -30 yrs ago. Black and white movie if I recall. I believe I rented it when home video first became popular.

In the book Old Yeller was thought to be a Black Mouth Cur. In reality no one knows because he was a shelter dog.
I had a mutt that could have passed for his double except for Yellar's lop ear. I also had the litter mate of this dog and she looked like a smooth Collie.....and the mom looked like hound. Go figure!:-k
Thats it Bob i first saw it 25 yrs ago was hooked on terriers back then and yep black and white but i think it got remastered in colour.

I take it Weatherwax was not as much as a pioneer as koehler.
 

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I haven't "retired" from this forum yet and maybe never will but would like the opportunity to explain the use of the "sharpened" prong.

As someone mentioned on here, one could imagine what a "yank with the fursaver could do" just imagine what a "yank" with the "sharpened prong" could do. "blood, scars, etc.". And what does a "yank with the fursaver achieve?

This is the crux of the problem - one does not yank a sharpened prong. One treats it gently. In all the time I used one and most of my colleagues, we "tweaked" the prong on a short soft lead without loop in order to call to attention the dog, having attained 11-13 months, to forget his hormones when working obedience and look up at us and in this second and this second only, the prong was released and the verbal praise was said.

We also put the prong on the dog when we let him run free, to assure him it was nothing bad. We also put the prong on before we drove to the club, not that the dog associated "prong - training". However during my training I observed that some disregarded this and found that using the prong without getting the dog used to it resulted in a better performance. Not my idea.

I was also advised at a seminar by a very well known IPO competitor (Worlds) to place a chain in between the sharpened prong links to loosen it so that when the dog was in the car, he was not reminded every second that he was wearing a "sharpened prong"

The corrections done by the "sharpened prong" were quick, painless (no more than someone taking your blood at a surgery.)

It's the hand that the delivers the pain, not the tool that the hand is using. This refers to loop, soft collar, fur saver, prong (sharpened or blunt), teletakt, etc.

I hope that this will clarify a surely misconcepted opinion in the States that we in Europe are not evil and not trying to find a very quick training result. Quick for the dog to learn, obviously, but not a short training to success.

I will add that no dog of mine ever lost blood to a sharpened prong - I always checked even if I resisted trying it out on hubby's neck!
Using more severe equipment just means that you use a lighter hand, just as using a more severe bit on a horse will 'soften' them up. If people try it rather than automatically assume it is more painful they would find out that you just use less force, with the result that the dog will respect even a flat collar more. It won't make a hard snap with a regular prong necessary, but rather it is the opposite. There are bits used on horses that will literally cause them to end up on their backs if you give it a pull like you do on a snaffle bit. They will actually soften a horse up to where a light touch with even a snaffle bit will stop them, because they have gained a respect for it. Same principle. Same difference between a prong and a flat collar.
 

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Using more severe equipment just means that you use a lighter hand, just as using a more severe bit on a horse will 'soften' them up. If people try it rather than automatically assume it is more painful they would find out that you just use less force, with the result that the dog will respect even a flat collar more. It won't make a hard snap with a regular prong necessary, but rather it is the opposite. There are bits used on horses that will literally cause them to end up on their backs if you give it a pull like you do on a snaffle bit. They will actually soften a horse up to where a light touch with even a snaffle bit will stop them, because they have gained a respect for it. Same principle. Same difference between a prong and a flat collar.
You have to wonder in many cases how it got to the point where you have to use severe equipment. I realise that for some dogs they maybe a good option, but most dogs should be able to be trained in a flat collar if you have had them since pups?

I guess the trick as you say to using the severe gear correctly is to be sensitive to the concept of force right from the outset. Then I can see that in the right hands they could be okay as Gillian has described and I think how the lady I have had conversations with about Khoeler trains.

People often use stuff like that as a last resort and yank or shock away which leads to them be called into question. In fact over here I think in some states the prong is banned. I have never seen one myself and dont know anyone who uses them.
 

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Sara,

In Australia, Europe or the USA. Banning of e-collars or prong collars is usually political or emotional and done by people who have no first hand knowledge of their proper usage :-(
 
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