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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm ordering the Koehler training book, and hopefully a crate (I say hopefully bc my mom thinks crates and training is 'cruel'), and a lot of people say combining the new and old training is the best. But how do you do that? What is an example of that? What kind of new training, Michael Ellis, Bart Bellon, Ivan Balabanov, other people? I would buy some Michael Ellis but I don't have any more $ left from dog sitting.
 

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Join a dog training club and learn from them...Even if you dont have a dog, I am sure many people would take a young apprentice and teach fundamentals of decoy work and then handling...

This is a path you must follow yourself, under the guidance of a good trainer.


Regards
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I REALLY want to join a club, go to seminars, anything, I just don't have a way of getting there at the moment. But as soon as I do I will go.
 

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Don't waste your money on Koehler. The training is 30 years out of date and while it may work, so will a rope. Stick with Michael Ellis stuff. Lots of information is available for free on the Leerburg website. Taking different techniques from various trainers works when you have a little more experience. For now I'd pick one style of training and stick with that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Don't waste your money on Koehler. The training is 30 years out of date and while it may work, so will a rope. Stick with Michael Ellis stuff. Lots of information is available for free on the Leerburg website. Taking different techniques from various trainers works when you have a little more experience. For now I'd pick one style of training and stick with that.
Okay Ill go check that out
 

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a couple of years ago there was a long thread on here regarding Koehler. I think I stated in that thread that those methods have no place in modern training. Of course a number of diehard Koehler people came on here and claimed how great it was. Like Thomas said it is extremely antiquated and obsolete by todays standards. This included some LE types. I trained dogs in the method for over 20 years but once I started in Schutzhund it was immediately apparent to me even as a complete novice that there was no place for it. It is pretty much a compulsion based method of training in the classic sense.

What you get when you train in a method of basically hurting the dog and simultaneously giving a command, or hurting the dog immediately after giving a command is a dog that associates the command with pain. What you end up getting is a dog that looks pained or at the very best a dull expression during the work. In the scoring in Schutzhund much attention is given to what the dog's expression is. You need an enthusiastic appearance in the dog. Compulsion will not get your there. It is also difficult to get speedy responses out of a compulsion based teaching method.

Now I am not saying that one should not use corrections. Once a dog has been taught a command and shows it knows a command with good expression then you introduce corrections, and then corrections for a dog not doing the command under distraction. This might be what you are referring to as a combination of old and modern. Even so it is not what they did in the old days. The dog needs to work while being corrected. The correction cannot come in the form of compulsion where the dog is corrected/forced into the correct position. This is you doing the work for him and the dog is not working.

I know the Michael Ellis stuff used to be available via streaming on the Leerburg site. If you want to know what the Koehler method was about keep checking Goodwill stores or look on ebay. That way you are not spending money you do not have for something you will really not need. I think from an educational historical sense it is worth reading. There is a part at the beginning of the book where he describes some sentimental types reactions from watching some training. That portion alone is priceless and actually is still valid in a sense. Sometimes if you have a real dog, those corrections, even in modern training, can be intense. The biggest difference is the method is not a part of the teaching process, it is a part of proofing what has already been taught.
 

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I'm a huge Ellis fan also. I started with Koehler back in the 50s. It does work but most of it trains WITH correction instead of reward based training AND correction as with Ellis.
I agree with Thomas about sticking to one method but there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't read and try to understand different methods of training. There can be good info in most all of it.
Those with years of training experience probably use a little bit of most everything.
 

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I'm a huge Ellis fan also. I started with Koehler back in the 50s. It does work but most of it trains WITH correction instead of reward based training AND correction as with Ellis.
I agree with Thomas about sticking to one method but there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't read and try to understand different methods of training. There can be good info in most all of it.
Those with years of training experience probably use a little bit of most everything.

Saved me some typing. ;)

I too am a huge Ellis fan. Not just with my own dogs, but in the past few years using his version of marker training, I've seen the owners of other dogs I work with stick with it way better than in days of yore. I think it's because they have such a good time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Yeah I want a speedy 'happy to obey' dog. I didn't know Koehler was all about correction correction correction, I just wanted an all around training book/dvd that was well known. I got a lot of things I'd like to work on but don't know who/where to get my training info from and how to get the ball rolling, since everyone in the dog world has their own opinion. I get what you are saying about the Koehler book, if I see a cheap one pop up somehwere I'll read it, and anything other good training books I can get my hands on to get a wider variety of training perspectives. I like the Ellis I've seen so far on video ill just stick with that, plus like Connie said they're free.
 

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Yeah I want a speedy 'happy to obey' dog. I didn't know Koehler was all about correction correction correction, I just wanted an all around training book/dvd that was well known. I got a lot of things I'd like to work on but don't know who/where to get my training info from and how to get the ball rolling, since everyone in the dog world has their own opinion. I get what you are saying about the Koehler book, if I see a cheap one pop up somehwere I'll read it, and anything other good training books I can get my hands on to get a wider variety of training perspectives. I like the Ellis I've seen so far on video ill just stick with that, plus like Connie said they're free.
Seems to be a range of information out there, from don't ever correct, to beat them into submission training.

I agree that Michael Ellis is the best that I have seen! He makes training fun for the dog, what could be better?
 

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I took my female through the 10 week Koehler novice method as soon as I got her as a green 10 month old. Through that, there were no corrective turns once the dog got the gross aspect of the command. It was a quick and productful 10 weeks and the corrective turns were sporadic and impersonal.

Once through the Koehler method, switched her over to a prong collar and ball rewards for sharp obedience and learning multiple nuanced commands. Then the fun really started for both of us.

I don't see that the Koehler work had any negative effect on the dog at all. If anything it layed a foundation for a very solid heel, down/sit stay and a sure off-leash recall.

Working her with ball reward of course gets her very attentive and enthused about working. And its the best way for me to control her on the street.

I have had experience with Koehler method and I do incorporate aspects of it into training. But, I will say that just picking up a Koehler book, reading it and then starting in on one's own to train a dog can certainly result in much frustration for both dog and owner.

Koehler is designed to be trained in a 10 week class setting with an experienced trainer leading the class. It is very common for someone attempting to do Koehler on their own to over correct and actually start strong arming the choke collar,making the corrections very personal to the dog, which is not the proper way to apply the method.
 

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if I see a cheap one pop up somehwere I'll read it, and anything other good training books I can get my hands on to get a wider variety of training perspectives.QUOTE]

Check out www.abebooks.com. I can usually find very cheap, used books that are still in good condition through that site. I did a quick search for "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" and there are 131 results ...of course not every one matches that exactly but there was at least one copy for $1.00.
 

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if I see a cheap one pop up somehwere I'll read it, and anything other good training books I can get my hands on to get a wider variety of training perspectives.QUOTE]

Check out www.abebooks.com. I can usually find very cheap, used books that are still in good condition through that site. I did a quick search for "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" and there are 131 results ...of course not every one matches that exactly but there was at least one copy for $1.00.
Thanks for this. Aimee likes her books!!
 

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I took my female through the 10 week Koehler novice method as soon as I got her as a green 10 month old. Through that, there were no corrective turns once the dog got the gross aspect of the command. It was a quick and productful 10 weeks and the corrective turns were sporadic and impersonal.

Once through the Koehler method, switched her over to a prong collar and ball rewards for sharp obedience and learning multiple nuanced commands. Then the fun really started for both of us.

I don't see that the Koehler work had any negative effect on the dog at all. If anything it layed a foundation for a very solid heel, down/sit stay and a sure off-leash recall.

Working her with ball reward of course gets her very attentive and enthused about working. And its the best way for me to control her on the street.

I have had experience with Koehler method and I do incorporate aspects of it into training. But, I will say that just picking up a Koehler book, reading it and then starting in on one's own to train a dog can certainly result in much frustration for both dog and owner.

Koehler is designed to be trained in a 10 week class setting with an experienced trainer leading the class. It is very common for someone attempting to do Koehler on their own to over correct and actually start strong arming the choke collar,making the corrections very personal to the dog, which is not the proper way to apply the method.
Hey it works. I used it for 20 years as well as did a 10 week course at one point. As in everything in regards to dog training it is all relative. When I started in a high quality Schutzhund club 9 years ago, I quickly discovered that in terms of getting top flight results the Koehler method was obsolete. That was then. Overall in the 9 years since I started the training, at least that I am involved in has evolved immensely making the Koehler method even more obsolete.
 

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I still have my two original Koehler books I bought in the 60s. :razz: :razz: ;-)
 

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I think it all depends on the kind of dog you have. I understand these motivational training methods work but are not as simple as everyone is making it seem. to me the Koehler method is easier for a novice to use. I have seen experience trainers mark the wrong behaviors,not break down the exercise. You can use compulsion without killing the dog. jmho
 

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I think it all depends on the kind of dog you have. I understand these motivational training methods work but are not as simple as everyone is making it seem. to me the Koehler method is easier for a novice to use. I have seen experience trainers mark the wrong behaviors,not break down the exercise. You can use compulsion without killing the dog. jmho

I would argue a harsher training method in a novice's hands could deadly...easier sure, but you can do a lot of damage with improper correct, both physically and mentally. I had a neighbor growing up who was following a Koehler training handbook essentially break the neck of his dog....it was a little terrier thing, he was following the directions and yanked way to hard at the wrong angle....the dog didn't make it

The worst a novice (or even an experienced trainer) is going to do with marker training is have to correct a behavior brought on by a bad mark...it isn't going to kill or severely injure your dog. Yeah it sucks (my ACD has still be known to rear up into a stand, fall on his side and flail when asked to crawl, and for the longest time his down in motion included howling) but it won't hurt your dog.
 

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I think it all depends on the kind of dog you have. I understand these motivational training methods work but are not as simple as everyone is making it seem. to me the Koehler method is easier for a novice to use. I have seen experience trainers mark the wrong behaviors,not break down the exercise. You can use compulsion without killing the dog. jmho
I'm glad you pointed that out.

There are courses still running in Germany "Zuckerbrot und Peitsche" run by Jogi Zank & Co. Translated this means more or less "reward and whip".

I have no doubt that the pup can be trained motivationally (more or less).

However, when, especially the male species attains the age of 11+ months you will find it difficult (maybe) to attract his attention with rewards. The up and coming male species, especially, has other thoughts in his hormone driven thoughts!

A sharpened prong (which does not hurt him in the least, will draw his attention to you much quicker than a blunt prong which will cause pain by the time it has reached his pain / attention) threshhold) and you can carry on your training with him.

In my mind there is no successful training to be absolved that is only done motivationally.

In my mind it is unfair to the pup to let him think life is just one sweet go along and then later to clamp so much harder on him because he resists.

It's also unfair to let handlers assume that just motivational training will bring results.
 

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I think it's a rare "green" trainer that can do well with any method right out of a book. It all works but the need for supervision is necessary in the VAST majority of cases.
Look into all of it. Watch and listen to anyone you can with all the different methods and decide what you and your dog need to be effective. That in itself can be hard to decide with a green handler.
I'm a huge reward/marker based fan but I have no problems at all with anyone that is successful with their dogs.
I've used both reward based markers and no correction and correction based only with nothing more then the occasional pat on the head. I've had a fair amount of luck with both but down the middle with a strong lean towards reward based markers is where I've settled in my old age. Doesn't make me better OR smarter. Just where I'm at now. That may change in my next 67 yrs.
Most any dog will benefit from both when done correctly. "Correctly" is where the problems begin. :lol::wink:
 
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