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Okay, a couple of things:

I don't care what the propaganda sites say, from both a biological and a nutritional perspective...DOGS AND WOLVES ARE NOT CARNIVORES. They are carnivorous omnivores. Even obligate carnivores like ferrets and cats need to eat the whole prey animal to get everything they need. Muscle meat and bone by itself is not sufficient. Even my snakes (obligate carnivores if there ever was one) get some plant material in the GI tracts of the rodents they eat whole. If all you do is feed muscle meat without feeding appropriate organ meat (including the GI tract), you will run into problems. I don't mind informed raw diets, but there some things I can't just let slide.

Whole prey is in my opinion the best way to go (and often the cheapest). My favorite is getting whole chickens (with giblets if possible) for around $0.80 a pound or cheaper or even better, whole turkeys at $0.50 a pound. I cut the 4-5 lbs chicken in half and each dog gets a half and with the turkey, the liver, heart, and gizzard are divided in portions so each dog gets a little.

Even my nutrition professor and the nutrition resident found it hard to argue with that. \\:D/ Adults are usually fine with about 1.5-3% (depending on what you're feeding and their activity level, etc), but pups will need more. Basically to figure out how many (kilo)calories your dog need, I highly recommend playing with these two sites:

http://www.mycockerspaniel.com/mer.htm
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Like for example, if you want to feed chicken quarters raw, you'd type in something like "chicken raw" and select "[SIZE=-1]Chicken, broilers or fryers, dark meat, meat and skin, raw[/SIZE]" and you can play around with how many kcals you're going to need. But keep in mind that feeding with body condition score is more important because of individual variation. Since humans don't tend to eat bones, it also doesn't count the calcium from the bones in there either.

I saw cod liver oil mentioned. This should be fed very sparingly as it is very high in vitamin A and you can end up with hypervitaminosis. I hope the breeder meant fish oil and not fish liver oil.

This may also be helpful as a resource:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aqeCwxbRWvsC
 

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Hi
If Frank is feeding a large amount of veg it does not matter because unless he is smashing the cells down to break the cell walls in the veg matter his dog/s cannot digest the veg anyway

He is just putting stuff in that is not being digested and it just comes out of the other end undigested as waste. So his true feed ratio of veg to meat is perhaps closer to what some people would consider normal for a carnivore am I correct or am I correct?

Fibre content from veg is not neccessary dogs get all the fibre they need from collagen

Come in Frank...........................anyone
 

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Ted - "I'm not sure it's ever been proven that they eat the contents of the GI. Tends to be so acidic as to ender the contents unappetizing."

I've been a hunter for 35 years. I've seen what a wolf pack did to a Caribou we didn't recover before dark in Quebec. The only recognizable part of the internal organs a bit of the esophagus & stomach. I've tracked deer with friends that show the simalar patter by Coyotes here in Illinois. I've also seen this evidence by Jackels in South Africa.

While I understand that my observations are not scientific method, I still tend to believe my own eyes.

I've also boar hunted with Curs & Hounds and watched as they took the interanal organs from field dressed boar with delight. The intestional "Tripe sausage" did seem to be quite the prize.:mrgreen:

Veggie & Fruit are high mositure content foods. I use them as a complement to the Meaty bones & Meat NOT as a substitue. I do keep my dogs lean and the do a lot of conditioning.

I didn't mentiuon that I also use Fish, Olive,Flax oil it add fat to the diet.
 

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For small prey (small birds, rodents, rabbits), they would be most likely to eat the animal whole. For larger prey, like deer or bison, from what I hear, they typically shake out the stomach contents on the ground. However, the ruminant stomach of a deer or bison (or elk or cow or goat, etc) has a lot of projections for some amazing surface area. I know from scooping out a cow stomach of both our dissection animal in anatomy lab and a fistulated cow that unless you have a power hose, you're not going to be able to get all the stomach contents completely clean and there will be little bits of plant goodness stuck to the 4 compartments of the rumen, reticulum, omasum, and abomasum.
 

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I saw cod liver oil mentioned. This should be fed very sparingly as it is very high in vitamin A and you can end up with hypervitaminosis. I hope the breeder meant fish oil and not fish liver oil.
I hope so too. Maren's whole post is spot on, but this needs highlighting. Fish body oil, not fish liver oil, if you are going to give any kind of a useful dose.
 

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I also find it funny how unlogical it is to feed a RAW then feel the need for pills.
But I don't consider fish oil and the E needed to process it as "pills" .... I see the modern grain-fed slaughter-animal diet as being unnaturally (and very recently) lopsided and heavy in Omega 6s. There are now very few ways to correct that without long-chain Omega 3s from marine sources.
 

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That's interesting Connie. So the grain fed diets of cattle and chickens requires Om3 to balance? When you say "correct", are you saying balance? Is there a balancing needed or simply a source for Om3 ?

I guess I'm asking if you have to increase Om3 because the Om6 is so high?
 

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That's interesting Connie. So the grain fed diets of cattle and chickens requires Om3 to balance? When you say "correct", are you saying balance? Is there a balancing needed or simply a source for Om3 ?

I guess I'm asking if you have to increase Om3 because the Om6 is so high?
Grass-fed slaughter animals had Omega 3s stored in their flesh and fat.

Slaughter animals are now very 6-heavy. Poultry, too.

Human and canine diets are now much heavier in 6s than 3s. 6s promote the formation of a group of inflammation-triggering hormones, and 3s promote the formation of a group of inflammation-controlling hormones.

Inflammation is a necessary healing response, but inflammation run amok is a major factor in such ailments as diabetes, arthritis, and many more.

So yes, in answer to your question.

I'm sorry this is so ridiculously oversimplified, because this is a vital aspect of a good diet.

But my right hand is broken and still swollen, so typing is horrible. (And yes, I DO realize how ridiculous it is to have three fractures from a HANDLING mishap; imagine what I could do as a decoy! :lol: )
 

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I'm awfully sorry to hear about your hand, Connie. I bet that was terrible.

Your post is interesting, since I may be living through some sort of inflammatory response with my pooch.
 

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Ted, this breaks down what Connie is talking about (and she's spot on).

http://www.eatwild.com/healthbenefits.htm

Whether it is carnivore, omnivore, or herbivore, you will not be as healthy if you are not eating a species appropriate. Therefore it makes sense that if the cattle and chickens we (and our dogs) consume are not eating an ideal diet, they aren't either. The portion of the website where you can look up local farmers and producers that pasture raise and finish their animals is a wonderful resource.
 
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