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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I currently feed my nearly 5-month old pup 9 ounces of either ground chicken, beef or turkey along with 3 ounces of shredded vegetables such as carrots, green beans, brocolli and spinach. A mixture of yogurt, raw egg and olive oil is added to each meal. She is fed this 3 times per day and at dinner she receives 1000 mg. of vitamin c, cod oil and a couple of other supplements that my breeder recommended. She weighs a lean 39 lbs.

I'm getting ready to make her meals for the next two weeks which I then freeze and then thaw daily as needed. I'm going to increase her meat intake to 12 ounces per meal. Do you think this is about right or too much/too little? Thanks.
 

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Are you feeding any raw bones???? Those are absolutely VITAL to the raw diet. Her bones will be brittle without them. You mention ground chicken/beef/turkey, if thats all muscle meat then its not a correct diet at all.

When I fed raw I fed 70% chicken backs/necks, 25% muscle meats (ground chicken/turkey) and 5% organ meats (gizzards, livers, hearts).

I fed the organ meats about 4 days a week, on the other 3 days I added an extra 5% of the muscle meats.

The bulk or "foundation" of the meal was the chicken backs and necks.

For supplements, Vit E + Vit C + Salmon Oil + Glucosamine. Flax seed oil is also good.

You NEED to get those bone meats in there. Chicken backs and necks are ideal because they are easy to digest and the perfect ratio of bone to meat.

Feeding quantity for puppies is 5-10% of their body weight. Adjust as neccesary to keep them lean but healthy. This usually fell right around 7-8% of the body weight for me.

You can use chicken wings/leg quarters for now since its readily available at Publix, but I would get in touch with DeLoach's meat mart in Casselberry and order up some chicken backs. It is about 18c per lb so very cheap feeding for the dogs. They will order you a 50lb or 100lbs and have it ready for pickup the next day.
 
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The ground meat is not vital. The boney meats are.

Chicken leg quarters, chicken wings, drumsticks, chicken necks, chicken backs, turkey necks, pork neck, pork rib, venison ribs, rabbits, gerbils, whatever.

Plus, all that is way cheaper than ground muscle meat anyway!

Plus the sheer enjoyment they seem to experience from being occupied with boney matter.

I can plop down a frozen deer head, and he'll be blissfully occupied for 1.5 hours. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
On another note, her vet is a big advocate of a raw diet but he doesn't believe bones are nutritionally necessary and actually recommends NOT feeding bones because of the potential of an injury.

I used to feed her raw chicken legs and she inhaled them, literally, whole. It's like they just slid down her throat and then she was ready for another and another...

I think I will pick up some chicken backs!
 

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A vet that said not to feed bones? I would look for a new vet.
Edit: Or stop discussing diet with them. My vet would have me feeding Hills if it were up to her, but she is very good about everything else.

Check your PM's Patrick.
 

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I have found that vets are just programmed to say these things about bones. Mine inhales as well, but I give leg quarters and the size requires them to be chewed up.

There just isn't a risk with raw bones.

I never could find backs myself.
 

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The MAJORITY of vets are the last people you want to discuss diet or behaviour with.
Hopefully that's turning a bit. At least with diet.
 

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Hi
A vet who is an advocate of raw feeding, not recommending meaty bones for dogs

What a load of old tripe (pun intended) do wolves go down to the butchers and order mince or best steak?


The amount of raw to give a dog is usually given as 2 to 3 % of ideal adult body weight per day, but a hard going working dog will need at least twice maybe three times that amount, pups are of course fed this in several meals per day

In practice however the amount given depends on the dog I am always adjusting the amounts my dogs are fed, nothing is writ in stone.... save for this easy rule

......if it is thin...... feed more...... up to 10% extra
..... if it is fat ......feed less......Down by 10% less
Re-assess the dog a week later


( Now why oh why can't I practice that for myself, maybe I need a good handler to take me on )

There are as many different ways to feed raw as there are raw feeders, do your own research and good luck
 

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I think discussing RAW diet is almost like tring to discuss religion and politics.

I agree with the meaty bone comments, I don't completely agree muscle meat isn't important. Varity is important feed meat, fish & poultry and organ meats are vilal.

I don't agree with feeding any concentrated suppliments ie. pills & powers. It is not natural for ANY mammal to take in high concentrations of chemical nutriants, the liver, kidneys, gall bladder were not designed to handle high loads on a regular basis.

I also find it funny how unlogical it is to feed a RAW then feel the need for pills.

I give 60-70% ground fruit & veggies with my 30-40% meat-meaty bone feedings. I try to keep the Muscle meats 30% fat. A single egg shell has 2000mg of Cal. Spinich, Kale & Swiss chad are full of Cal. as is Plain yogurt.
Those dark leafy veggies along with Brocolli also are full of Iron & cancer fighting anti-oxidents. Fruits like pineapple, mango provide vit. c and enzimes. Apples, sweet potato, beets provide fiber.

Puppies should have More Cal. during Teething as the developemt of adult teeth does robe cal. from the bones & joints. That can be accomplished with an Egg shell & Yogurt.

RAW/BARF feeding is ment to be looked at on a weelky basis NOT daily. Also Adult dogs do bennifit from an occcasional fast.
 

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You sure have a high ratio of fruit to meat. Given that meat is the primary source of metabolic energy not vegetation, that seems really out of balance to me.

Dogs don't process carbs like we do. And we don't process protein the way they do.
 

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Ted - I realize that My thoughts are a bit radical for some. I do feel the condition of my dogs does bear out the bennifits.

Meaty bones are a good part of a dog's, I feed them on a regular basis, The down side is the high phosporius & ash levels with do tax the kidneys.

From another website forum:

www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu
"In addition to excessive calcium intake, researchers have shown that over nutrition can also initiate these disturbances in skeletal maturation and growth. An excess protein intake, without an excess of other nutrients revealed NOT to influence skeletal maturation and growth in growing Great Danes (Ref. 2)."

Managing a Renal Crisis by Martha S. Gearhart, DVM
". . . at least one study has taken several groups of dogs in kidney failure and fed them diets that varied in protein level and phosphorus level. The groups with severely restricted phosphorus lived longer than the groups with normal or high levels of phosphorus. The protein intake made no difference at all in longevity. . . .
"It is important to remember that phosphorus is more important than protein -- feeding vegetables or salt-free crackers to a dog in kidney failure will not add protein but it will add phosphorus."

Visit the above quoted thread here: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=48372&highlight=orijen+calcium+phosphorus



You are correct that a dog's GI track is short than a humans. I believe the reason ground (puree) Veggies & Fruits work is the grinding process compinsates for the short intestinal lenght in a dog. Also, we are adding enzimes to the mix (Pro-zime). The cancer fighting bennits of Kale alone are worth taking advantage of.

The insides of a dog are the same as the insides of a wolf. The DNA is the same. Wolfs do ingest partiaclly digested plant matter when the gut is eaten.

Something that I've seen people denie, then post about feeding green tripe...:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Wolves get some fiber bennifit from the fur of the prey. Wolves also burn much more food calories that domestic dogs. Even biking a dog 4-5 miles can not compare to a wolf's patrol of it's natrual range (50 + sq. miles)in calorie consumptioin. Wolves also do not eat daily. The hunt, gourge, rest...repeat. Thier internal organs do not work daily on processing foods like meat & bones witch take a lot of metabolic engery to break down.

We have more regular demands on our dogs. Also, we hope to have our dog live longer than wolfs do in the wild.

I have a 3 1/2 Rotty bitch with OFA execlent rated hip & Clear elbow that runs 4-6 mile several days a week with me(Mtn. Bike) We are training for the AD.

I had a Malamute that I truely believe this diet & conditioning extened his life a soild year(Renal failure). He was still running 4 miles with BUN levels at 85, at 104 our VET could not believe the test results were correct due to his condition. I was told that dog wouldn't make 6 mos before I put him on this diet, he lived 18mos(not mearly survied)...He only got meaty bones once a month for his teeth & gums.

I had a 11 y.o. Catahoula that had a large Soft cancer mass removed. This dog also had displastic hips. He had a good quality of life until 13 years.

IMHO the wise dog owner looks ar all the options for feeding and remembers everyone selling something has motives($$$).

Just like Mon used to say, "Eat your vegitables, they are good for you"
 

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I have no issue with the bone component of your posts. Nor the occasional fast.

Simply the proportion of vegetation (30%) relative to RMB/organs (70%)

I'm not sure it's ever been proven that they eat the contents of the GI. Tends to be so acidic as to ender the contents unappetizing. I feed veg / fruit cooked and pureed: as you said their GI system is short so I try to increase the surface area for absorption.

Obviously they're omnivores, but a given a wolf's natural high proportion of meat to veggies, which I'm speculating MAY be 95% prey to 5% vegetation, I'm curious what the rationale is to swing to 30% vegetation. That's not a criticism, I'm curious.
 

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Are you feeding any raw bones???? Those are absolutely VITAL to the raw diet. Her bones will be brittle without them. You mention ground chicken/beef/turkey, if thats all muscle meat then its not a correct diet at all.

When I fed raw I fed 70% chicken backs/necks, 25% muscle meats (ground chicken/turkey) and 5% organ meats (gizzards, livers, hearts).

I fed the organ meats about 4 days a week, on the other 3 days I added an extra 5% of the muscle meats.

The bulk or "foundation" of the meal was the chicken backs and necks.

For supplements, Vit E + Vit C + Salmon Oil + Glucosamine. Flax seed oil is also good.

You NEED to get those bone meats in there. Chicken backs and necks are ideal because they are easy to digest and the perfect ratio of bone to meat.

Feeding quantity for puppies is 5-10% of their body weight. Adjust as neccesary to keep them lean but healthy. This usually fell right around 7-8% of the body weight for me.

You can use chicken wings/leg quarters for now since its readily available at Publix, but I would get in touch with DeLoach's meat mart in Casselberry and order up some chicken backs. It is about 18c per lb so very cheap feeding for the dogs. They will order you a 50lb or 100lbs and have it ready for pickup the next day.
Patrick: This is very close to how I feed as well. The only difference is in addition to the chicken necks and backs, I rotate whole venison necks, lamb necks, pork necks & ground beef muscle & bone.

I supplement same as Mike.
 

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Simply the proportion of vegetation (30%) relative to RMB/organs (70%)
I think you got it backwards Ted. If I read Frank's post correctly, he feeds 60-70% VEGGIES. Thats an aweful lot of vegetation IMO.


Obviously they're omnivores, but a given a wolf's natural high proportion of meat to veggies
I thought they were carnivores?
 

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I give 60-70% ground fruit & veggies with my 30-40% meat-meaty bone feedings. I try to keep the Muscle meats 30% fat.
This seems a bit much. I've never seen such a high content of vegetable matter promoted for a raw diet. I wonder how long I'd have to starve my (very discriminating) mals to get them to eat all those vegetables...

Then again, I know a veggie-health-food-nut gal who has her cocker on a vegetarian diet, and the dog is still alive at 7 years old. Fat, out of shape, with nasty nasty teeth, and yeast infections everywhere, and lots of fleas. But still alive. They are a lot more adaptable than we give them credit...

Personally I feed RAW prey model, which includes whole animals whenever possible. I have yet to find a rat, rabbit, mouse or guinea pig composed of 70% vegetable matter :mrgreen:

The reason for vitamin E and fish oil is to replace Omega3 fatty acids - what their prey animals would contain in nature, but that commercially grown do not because of the grain-fed farming methods.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Wow! This is really an interesting and eye-opening thread, at least for me. I'm certainly going to reconsider my pup's diet.

On another note I can't help to laugh when I look back on the diet of the dog I grew up with, Barney. Barney was a 75 lb. mutt that we adopted in 1977 from an animal rescue organization when I was 12 years of age. We lived in the country outside of Columbus, Ohio and for years we roamed the fields and woods that surrounded us.

I don't remember what kibble we fed him, it might have been Dog Chow but I don't really remember. I DO remember that he ate the leftovers from just about every dinner we ever had, including the chicken and steak bones that we obviously could not eat. If I only had a dollar for every cooked bone that dog ate!

Barney was eventually put down at the age of 14. Up until the very end he was an extraordinarily active and happy dog.
 
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