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How important a role does dominance play in bitework? People always talk about evaluating prey, nerve, and defense when looking at prospects, but you don't always hear the same emphasis on dominance.

What most will point to as "fight drive" I see as prey + dominance, and maybe a little defense.

How effective can a submissive or neutral dog be in bitework, especially in a more practical application like PSD or PPD?

Simon
 

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How important a role does dominance play in bitework? People always talk about evaluating prey, nerve, and defense when looking at prospects, but you don't always hear the same emphasis on dominance.

What most will point to as "fight drive" I see as prey + dominance, and maybe a little defense.

How effective can a submissive or neutral dog be in bitework, especially in a more practical application like PSD or PPD?

Simon
first off, i agree 100% with your definition of "fight drive".

now on to the meat and potatoes. i think a dominant dog does better than non dominant dogs in those areas (PSD, PPD). it goes along with thresholds. for a dog working in only prey, it can need stimulation to get it going (if not trained properly). the dominant dog wants to assert his authority over all it sees given the chance. i have only seen one dog that i would say had a lot of social dominance and it was a scary SOB. i wouldn't want to work a dog like that. for many reasons. some social dominance yes, but not super high. PSD's are too often in non-bite situations to work a dog like that.

but a totally passive dog working in prey only would need to have a LOT of prey drive if it were really really submissive. then again, i have seen some very submissive dogs when they weren't working that did just fine when they were "in the mode".

so i guess it would be nice to have some dominance, but not too much and if a dog were really submissive, it would need a lot of prey to compensate...
 

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Your a n00b.

Probably not the best answer I have ever given, that honor belongs to my WoW answer to your new PC thread. I was on the phone, and thought it was amusing. Snotty pants.



 

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pulling and pushing is just as much a training thing as it is genetic. if not, why do you always see beginning leg dogs being dragged around by the decoy? that's what those sports like so the dogs are trained that way...
 

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Yes, but a dominant dog will not go along with that training, and still pushes into or generally intereferes with the decoys attempts to drive him.

Even leg dogs take advantage when the decoy is still to try and bite the decoy harder, or interfere.

I think I spelled interfere wrong.



 

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If you bring it back to the bone, Jeff´s reply is right ;)
Yes, you can train on it and yes it is partly genetic, but true dominant dogs(who has it in his genes) will push bite very young.
 

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I certainly agree with Jeff and Selena. The "push" is there regardless of what the decoy is trying to do. Jeff, I wish you'd be more careful spelling though, I hate mispelt werds.

DFrost
 

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It is the difference between a hanger, and a pusher. This is why Sch people breed trash. They like hangers. LOL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Now Jeff, I'm still trying to get used to your provocative style. In the interim, let's take a long look at some facts. In some countries the only sport they play is IPO or Sch. Now the foundation of some of the strongest dogs in Police and Sport find their way back to these countries and sports. Pulling or hanging can be taught and rewarded with poor foundation training. Yes, even dominant dogs if rewarded, will learn to pull on a grip. I see it all the time in the Police world. DOGS I've have trained and donated, go through a course and come back to me with a completely different grip, they like to call it a {COUNTER}. For some reason in my area the dogs are taught to pull exclusively. I go crazy about it. An entire year of hard work building a solid bite foundation, out the window in a few weeks.

In a sport like Schutzhund where the dogs are swung a lot. They must hang on to stay on. Not to mention, you have a bite placement on the exterior arm far from the inner body. It practically lends itself to hanging and pulling. Where you see the true dominant behavior in IPO are the guards. You must also keep in mind really dominant dogs are not particularly easy to train and don't also score high for the top trainers to want.

I will agree, I love to see or train a dominant puppy that drives in with the grip. They are not fun in a trial suit though.

Bryan
 

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pulling is preferred in some PSD circles because often times, the badguy is secreted in a place where the humans can't see or would have to expose themselves unnecessarily to see, so pulling that guy out it desirable. having a dog drive into the bite while a guy is under a car may not achieve the desired effect...

but i agree with you brian, that training has as much to do with pushing/pulling as genetics does...
 

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What do people think about pulling on the decoy as being a sign of insecurity in the dog and trying to create distance between the decoy and himself but not willing to give up the bite. Like a conflict in the dog he wants to bite the decoy but is scared to death about what he is going to do to him... I have seen pleanty of this that people misinterprete IMO as a good SCH dog who is a "Hanger". Also I would say that most of the PSD's that do it are doing it for the same reason.. remember here in the states 99% of our PSD's are sport rejects. Now that statement should make you feel safe..
 

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What do people think about pulling on the decoy as being a sign of insecurity in the dog and trying to create distance between the decoy and himself but not willing to give up the bite. Like a conflict in the dog he wants to bite the decoy but is scared to death about what he is going to do to him... I have seen pleanty of this that people misinterprete IMO as a good SCH dog who is a "Hanger". Also I would say that most of the PSD's that do it are doing it for the same reason.. remember here in the states 99% of our PSD's are sport rejects. Now that statement should make you feel safe..
i think i don't have my PhD in doggy psychology and even if i did, i would have to have some major couch time with the dog to be able to determine that...
 

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What if a dog pulls, but torques the decoy like crazy or uses his entire body to make contact and fight? The ones that actually drag the decoy down during the escape. I've seen a few Schutzhund dogs do this (rather than just hanging along for the ride).
 

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Have any of you ever personally witnessed an actual apprehension on the street?
You know the police K9 dog bites bad guy, bad guy goes to jail kind?
The mechanics of it are radically different than what goes on in training I can assure you of that.
Once the chips are down the dog may have to use a variety of different tactics to accomplish the objective.
Is the guy running? Fighting the dog? Does he have a weapon? Is he wearing a heavy jacket or t-shirt and shorts?
My point is pulling can be just as effective as pushing, it all depends on what the perp is doing, a good police dog uses whatever tactic is most effective in that situation.

I mean isnt that what all this sport stuff is all about? Trying to simulate the real thing?
 
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