[Bob Scott]

For me, again, it's motivational. I simply lock up and wait. The lock up usually tells the dog I'm no more fun. As soon as he lets go, I IMMIDEATELY put the rag/toy back into prey for a rebite. Most of the reasons for a \"no out\" is the dogs fear of loosing the toy/rag/sleeve. Once it realizes it gets it back just for releasing it, I then put a command with it. \"AUS\"!
I became a big believer in this when a really nasty, Sch III dog came to our club with a HUGE out problem. He just didn't! He had been shocked, pinched, choked to unconsciousness! The out command became a fight song for this dog. The first night on the sleeve, he hung on for 20 mins. Our TD/Helper weighs 340 (thank goodness). When he finally let go, he was rewarded with an immediate rebite. Only took 15 mins the second time :roll: . Within a couple of weeks, he was cleanly outing on nothing more than the helper locking up. He did have to go through the same scenario (much shorter time) with the next couple of helpeers we put him in front of, but soon realized the \"Aus\" ment the same with everyone. The only down side is, so far, he still wont out on a helper lockup if he feels any weakness in the helper. He will with a command though.

 

[Kristen Cabe]

I think this can be a really good thread. I will have to teach Jak to aus pretty soon because the only way to get him off the bite right now is to choke him off it. We JUST started (he's only been worked twice now), but I am interested to learn how people train this differently. I know what I did with my pet dog, but she and Jak are not even comparable. She is a pet, plain and simple - EXTREMELY well trained and I wouldn't trade her for the world, but just a pet.

 

[Bob Scott]

Kirsten, try the lockup. Just pull the tug in close to your leg. The key is to imobolize it as best you can. It might take a bit at first, and don't worry about a command at this point. Get the behavior down first. Mark the out verbally. \"GOOD\"! Wait 2-3 seconds and let the dog rebite by quick movement of the tug. Good chance the dog will try and egg the helper into movement. He needs to stay locked up. The Balabanov tapes are very good for this. If your helper is willing, let him know what you want.

 

[Jim Nash]

Bob ,
We did this with a K9 given to us from another agency that couldn't certify the dog because it wouldn't out amongst other things .

We also tried everything before this with no effect .

We did it abit different though . We had a large angled tree that I could crawl up the trunk on for support . The dog was sent and I crawled up the tree getting the dogs front feet off the ground and at a spot on the tree where the dog couldn't get his front feet onto the tree for support . They then supported the end of my sleeve with a tracking leash swung over a tree branch to keep the dogs front feet off the ground . I didn't make eye contact with the dog or react to him at all. The dog went about 40 minutes the first time and was sent on a second decoy and repeated which went about 10-15 minutes . It was very taxing on the dog so we put him away for the day . The next day he actually went 45 minutes the first time but only about 5-10 the next . The following repititions were CONSIDERABLY shorter .

I could see the little light bulb go off in his head where he realized what out meant . We still had to do a fair amount of compulsive work with him after that to clean him up but this got us on the road to a clean out .

He turned out to be the best and toughest street dog I've ever had the pleasure to worked with . He turned out getting very good bitescores in Police K9 competitions and we were on the 2000 National Champ team together . I've tried basically the same version you described with others dogs I knew wouldn't go as long and and that I knew I could control without the added help and they just didn't get it . It's cool when it does work though .

You're right about the decoy having to lock up , if the dog sences he's winning in anyway (most common being able to pull the arm down just a little bit) it increases the chance the dog won't out . Challenging the dog (eye contact no matter how slight) also can set the dog back . My back and shoulders have never been the same .

 

[Bob Scott]

Jim,

Excellent point about not making eye contact! That would add another bit of time to a really tough dog. I love the idea of making the dog work harder (feet off the ground) by tying up the sleeve. That way, he gets tired faster. I, for sure, ain't gonna hold up even a beagle for any lenght of time. :lol:
Whos sez ya can't make a really serious dog work because he uses his head instead of \"Cause I said so\"! :wink:

 

[Jim Nash]

Having owned 1 Beagle I think it would be a long wait on the sleeve if they bit it . I don't know if they are stubborn or just not all there .

 

[Jim Nash]

Those adlibs on the front feet and tieing the sleeve were just because the trainers knew it was gonna be along time waiting for this dog to out and knew I couldn't handle him on my own . This was several years ago and I was just a newbie Handler sacrificing myself for the cause .

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

Having owned 1 Beagle I think it would be a long wait on the sleeve if they bit it . I don't know if they are stubborn or just not all there .

I'm gonna venture a guess here and say the latter :lol:

 

[Patrick Murray]

Nice post guys, thanks.

When my dog was a pup I hit tennis balls to him. When he brought it back to me I told him \"Aus!\" and he released it. His reward was that I'd hit it again.

With no effort at all this translated over to the bite work. His outing was spectacular for about 4+ years.

And then recently it became an issue. One issue was we were always in defense with him and so it wasn't really fun for him. We've toned things down and have gone to putting him in a sit and then giving him another bite. He seems to be doing much, much better. Although, as I mentioned in another post, Mike and I are trying to solve the issue of him tagging the decoy one more time when I try to heel him away from the decoy. I think we'll get there.

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

Kind a like Bob, I guess.

Learn it when i work with the advanced puppy sleeve(when they´re about 7-8 mo.). Take the dog between my legs, put the (flat) collar a bit fowards or will take the fore legs from the ground and wait till they out themselves. After a while, if they understand they´re supposed to do the out, i tell them \"los\". After the out, theywill rewarded by biting again or the sleeves gets out of their sight by helper who is running away with it (afplagen).