[Mike Burke]

Was having a convo with a buddy of mine about the different methods of
bringing out aggression in a dog that lacks in this dept...What methods do
you guys and girls use?....Also would like to hear the methods you agree with and disagree with.

 

[Al Curbow]

Mike, what do you mean, aggression for sport?

 

[Mike Burke]

I apologize... yes for sport

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

At what point do you need this??? Some dogs have this, and what is the point???? It is either there or not, and anything more is a trained response, and pretty much crap. Sorry.



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[Mike Burke]

Yes... I agree.. not all dogs have it... and then we need to bring it out in the dog.... For instance the H&B. When aggression for the man will bring the intense barking in the blind.

Not every one has the dog that has natural aggression towards the man... Maybe your one of the lucky ones that has not had to deal with this. Either way it must be brought out... and there are ways of doing this... I wanted to know what some people do to bring it out.

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

But the dog doesn't have it, so what is the point????

If the dog is just faking it in the H&B which he would be, it is really obvious. Why bother??



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[Bob Scott]

Many dogs that initially show a little fear or avoidance can be brought "up" with correct training if the dog has natural aggression (genetics).
It's just building confidence in them.
If they don't have it naturally you, most likely, will wind up with a nerve bag.
Even many good, young dogs will hesitate with a new helper. Thes dogs should get thorugh it with a few expieriences on new helpers.
A dog that has a "trained response" because of a weakness will show it's true nature with new helpers that put more pressure on it then it's used to.

 

[Andres Martin]

Mike's question is very interesting...because it does not only apply to nerve bags. It also applies to very confident, social dogs. My first Malinois didn't react aggressively to anything, and he bit a bunch of people really hard without aggression. That dog had no nerve problems, was totally stable, good with people, kids, other animals. He was very friendly. His guard - from the KNPV program - had anticipation written all over it. It was VERY intense. I tried a bunch of things to teach him to get pissed off on cue, and it always went back to anticipation after a while.

He only got pissed off when the people he was biting hurt him back. That's my answer, and I'm stickin' to it. Pain, threat, frustration...coupled with victory.

 

[Greg Long]

To bring out aggression in a dog simply have the decoy put pressure on him.If the decoy is someone he is used to he may have to feel a little pain.If the decoy is a stranger then a stare should do it.This is assuming the decoy isnt a dumbass.Weak dogs wont be able to take much of it.Submit to ANY FORWARD movement on the dogs part.It may only be an inch but to the dog its a mile.

 

[Khoi Pham]

I use conflict to bring out aggression, kind of like the handler unfairly correcting a strong dog and he got pissed of and bite the handler, but we direct the aggresion toward the helper instead.
Assuming the dog has a solid bark and hold, and not in the begining stage of b&h training, and that he was trained properly, balance in prey and defense.
I send him into the blind for the bark and hold, and have a long line hook to the prong colar, as he is doing his barking, I will give him a pop, and immediatly the decoy will crack the whip, the dog is thinking that I am doing this correctly but why I am being corrected, this created conflict and pissed him off, that will bring out the aggression and as the decoy crack the whip immediatly after the correction, the aggression is channel toward him instead of me the handler. You have to be careful that you and the decoy works in unity, otherwise the dog might turn around and bite you instead, and also not correcting too hard that might bring his drive down, after a few session you should be able to know how much pop to apply to bring out the most aggresion in the bark, on every session, decoy should let him bite and put up a good fight then let him win when the agression level is highest.
Good luck.

 

[Mike Burke]

You have people who train in your club for a hobbie...who just want to trial their dogs and get their titles... an you have people who want to compete at a high level... no matter what sport..... Every club has both.

Now if your dealing with a person who is training for hobby... and they have a dog that lacks aggression...what do you do...say what's the point and tell them it is not worth your time? Not me... especially if the person is dedicated... your going to bring this dog to it's full potential as best you can.... And most will say....Well this person should get a new dog. As a helper/decoy these are the dogs we learn the most on imo.

To build aggression... We will tie this dog out with dogs that are high caliber.... work the high caliber dogs.. and frustrate the dog that lacks.... make misses.... go back to the high caliber dog & work it..... when the dog that lacks shows you the right behavior you give it a grip....
We will also make a aggression by sending the dog to a helper that is in the bushes and do a H&B in the bushes.... have the handler come in pull the dog out and the helper cracks the whip or loads the dog another way and runs back to the blind and the dog does another H&B in the blind and you give the dog the grip when it shows you the right behavior.... you can give the grip in the blind or outside the blind.

We do both methods and more with all our dogs in the club. Always good to go back to the basics with the advanced dogs.... breaks up the monotony and the dog has fun.

I am not giving a training lesson here.... Most on this board are more knowledgeable than me... there are plenty of ways to make aggression in a dog that lacks or one that does not(like Khoi Pham wrote).... But to say what's the point is silly..because not every dog in the club has whole package.

Or there is always flanking.. :twisted: ... :lol:

I apologize if my original post was not clear.

 

[Andres Martin]

Mike...I simply want to point out that dog training clubs ultimately should be about people having fun, and it's very cool to have a creative decoy that's willing to put in the time and the sweat...to build up less than stellar dogs. Those dogs also teach the most. Kudos to ya.

 

[Woody Taylor]

Now if your dealing with a person who is training for hobby... and they have a dog that lacks aggression...what do you do...say what's the point and tell them it is not worth your time? Not me... especially if the person is dedicated... your going to bring this dog to it's full potential as best you can.... And most will say....Well this person should get a new dog. As a helper/decoy these are the dogs we learn the most on imo.
...
We do both methods and more with all our dogs in the club. Always good to go back to the basics with the advanced dogs.... breaks up the monotony and the dog has fun.

I know you're looking for training feedback, Mike, but I wanted to hijack long enough to ask...if it's just club fun training, is there a reason why the dog needs aggression brought out? Just wondering if it's not natural to the dog, if it's worth messing with, assuming it's a newb owner who might not know how to respond if that aggression shows up somewhere off the training field.

Just wondering, I am not being critical, I think about this with my own dog (I am talking about sport dogs, not anything else). She's very high prey but not aggressive at all. I don't see any reason to put a lot of pressure on her, my only goal is to have fun. It would be nice to get rid of her high-pitched yips, but...

Is bringing out aggression fun for the dogs who aren't inherently capable of it?

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

Is bringing out aggression fun for the dogs who aren't inherently capable of it?

Depends on the dog. Some dogs are turned on by pain. It's the decoys job to judge, n only a good decoy with quick reactions to a dogs forwardness should attempt it.

 

[Mike Burke]

Good post Woody...

In our club we have several high level competition dogs....We have a nice mix of people who train for hobby and people who train for the big competitions.

The members who train for hobby want to get their titles... but they want to get the most points they can during a trial.... So say the hobby handler does not fair to well in the protection portion...does not get the scores he/she wanted...the dog lacks some aggression... If the handler wants to bring this out in their dog we will work on it.... if they don't want to bring out the aggression.....We don't do it. If we do it and the dog does not respond to it well we stop before damage is done.... we make everything prey again.

As far as newbie handlers.....in our club we pair them up with a more experienced trainer/handler. Team work is everything.

Also....As far as it carring over into other area's off the field.... Yes it can happen. It can happen with a high prey driven dog as well... Their animals, something can happen at any time with any breed... It also comes down to what kind of control we have over our dogs. Control meaning OB... or we control the contact the dog has with other people and dogs. Everyone who is training in dog sports involving bite work always run the chance of something happing... to us control over the dog is paramount.

Is bringing out aggression in a dog who is not inherently aggressive fun for the dog?.... I think it depends on how you go about bringing out. If the dog begins to understand it and is gaining confidence from it and getting praise from it's handler... I believe it becomes fun for them.... You as the helper/decoy have to know how to read the dog(like Mike S mentioned)...when to add some pressure and when take the pressure away.... It is not fun for the dog if your stressing the dog out.. I have heard of dogs that have pissed themsleves from being worked the wrong way. That is why you need to do this with an experienced helper/decoy.... This why having an experienced group of trainers is so important.... This is reason why I have surrounded myself with some of the best and travel a total of four hours to train.

 

[Woody Taylor]

Nah, I hear you, I had the bad fortune to finally see poor defense work done on two dogs that were neither ready for it nor enjoying it, kind of left a bad taste in my mouth about "eliciting aggression" in club-level dogs that I'm still thinking through.

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

Nah, I hear you, I had the bad fortune to finally see poor defense work done on two dogs that were neither ready for it nor enjoying it, kind of left a bad taste in my mouth about "eliciting aggression" in club-level dogs that I'm still thinking through.

I wouldn't worry about it. "Bad" stuff happens every day in the dog world, theres not much you can do about it other than avoiding it and not allowing it to happen to your dog.

 

[Bob Scott]

Nah, I hear you, I had the bad fortune to finally see poor defense work done on two dogs that were neither ready for it nor enjoying it, kind of left a bad taste in my mouth about "eliciting aggression" in club-level dogs that I'm still thinking through.

I wouldn't worry about it. "Bad" stuff happens every day in the dog world, theres not much you can do about it other than avoiding it and not allowing it to happen to your dog.

I think we all agree that it takes experienced helper/decoy work to do this properly. Unfortunately to many nubees to bite work can't or don't recognise what is good or bad.
To often a new person goes along with what the TD tells them is right.
In Woody's instance his gut told him things weren't right. Not everyone will have the sense to recognise that.
Course Woody probably used some kinda math formula to figure it out. :roll: :lol: :wink:

 

[Connie Sutherland]

To often a new person goes along with what the TD tells them is right. ... In Woody's instance his gut told him things weren't right. Not everyone will have the sense to recognise that. ... Course Woody probably used some kinda math formula to figure it out. :roll: :lol: :wink:

On an electronic gadget.

 

[Woody Taylor]

Is bringing out aggression in a dog who is not inherently aggressive fun for the dog?.... I think it depends on how you go about bringing out. If the dog begins to understand it and is gaining confidence from it and getting praise from it's handler... I believe it becomes fun for them....

I don't know how true aggression would be fun for a weak dog. I think...to a good post Jeff O made a few days ago...that repetitive attempts at pressuring a dog in a club atmosphere are gonna teach it quick that it is a game, and the posturing they do there is show more than anything else. A smart dog would figure it out, a smart dog is gonna read into the posture of its handler, the before/after actions of the decoy, and realize this is not a "legit" situation.

Maybe I am giving a smart dog too much credit.

Or maybe some dogs recover from it/deal with it better than I think. I am embarassed to say that I pressured the crap out of my dog when she was a puppy...intense tugwork on tile, on top of her, slapping her side, a lot of this while she was teething. Wasn't until I talked to Bob and others when I first started learning about correct training that I understood what I was doing and how screwy it was. Took me awhile to get Annie straight after that, I am very lucky that she is as stable and confident as she is today, but she's still got a lot of baggage from me dinking around when she was little.

I do think (this isn't anything about your club or your training, Mike) that clubs should be very upfront about defense promotion with newb handlers, take time to explain what's going on and what they hope to accomplish by doing it. And what to look for outside of training, as I do think it could get out of hand a lot more than extreme prey. To earlier points, people are way too intimidated to ask this stuff of TDs.

I do gotta say I don't really get defense promotion for club-level sport dogs. Probably my ignorance, I just think it's a box that probably doesn't need to be opened all that much. Annie's never had that much pressure put on her...repetitive stick hits on her harness, a few to the side, while on leg bites...but I don't see the need to pressure her hard.