Hip X-Rays and Panosteitis

5088 Views 15 Replies 3 Participants Last post by Woody Taylor, Mar 31, 2006

Woody Taylor

Discussion Starter · Mar 29, 2006

So my hip dysplasia diagnosis for Annie (moderate HD in an 8-month-old GSD) turned out to be that initial diagnosis by the vet, who was then overruled by a visiting surgeon who said it didn't look that bad, who has now been one-upped by a radiologist at the U of MN who's saying that \"the hips are normal.\"

Just for the sake of archiving some experiences, I did want to post his comments...I would love for this to become a common practice on this forum, and I have some questions around Panosteitis.

\"...I would keep an eye on the left hip because there appears to be just a bit of laxity but it's very qualitative. Keep in mind the animal is just entering the prime deterioration time for the hips so even if it's not dyspastic now, it may be in 4-5 months. At this points I see no reason that the dog couldn't jog with the owner [ed...I am not doing this with her!]. If the ownder wishes to be judicious, I would get a follow-up set of hip views in about 6 months...elbows are normal.

...Although apparently not symptomatic, there are some patchy areas of endosteal proliferation in the left radius as well as the left and right ulnae. This probably indicates emerging or clinically silent panosteitis.

...Diagnostic impressions: So far the hips are okay but follow up suggested; normal elbows, what looks to a little panosteitis probably sub clinical in several of the front lim structures; the owner should just be told this may be a problem.\"

So, anyway. Based on my reading, panosteitis sounds pretty much like growing pains. Right or wrong?

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Connie Sutherland

· #2 · Mar 29, 2006

Woody Taylor said:
So my hip dysplasia diagnosis for Annie (moderate HD in an 8-month-old GSD) turned out to be that initial diagnosis by the vet, who was then overruled by a visiting surgeon who said it didn't look that bad, who has now been one-upped by a radiologist at the U of MN who's saying that \"the hips are normal.\" .......I have some questions around Panosteitis....... Based on my reading, panosteitis sounds pretty much like growing pains. Right or wrong?

Right. She is not on puppy food, right? (Sorry, I can't remember

)

True Pano is a self-limiting ailment, which doesn't occur after the growth plates close. I think I remember that it's about 18 months when that happens. Your dog is at a common age for Pano, based on everything I have read.

That follow-up X-Ray sounds exactly like the right suggestion, from what I've read.

Would you like some URLs to Pano discussion?

I'm not a health professional. I do a lot of research.

G

· #3 · Mar 29, 2006

Right. Caleb has had several bouts, and is in fact in the middle of one right now. It can be very painful, however, and therefore makes you panic occasionally. Caleb was misdiagnosed w/ a torn ACL when he actually had horrible pano. An anti-inflammatory works wonders on the really bad days. It moves around from leg to leg, too. I give him high doses of MSM, and it keeps his limp to a minimum. When that's not enough, I give him Zubrin (NSAID), but I don't follow the manufacturer's instructions. The vet said I could just give it \"as needed\" to avoid the longterm liver and kidney damage these drugs can cause. It doesn't slow him down usually, but he does still have days where he'll keep weight off the affected limb. BTW, Caleb is 28mos old! :? The vet said to me \"Congratulations. He is still growing.\"

Woody Taylor

Discussion Starter · #4 · Mar 29, 2006

Yeah, Connie, I always appreciate your links!

Well, she is on Innova puppy food right now and I supplement with Solid Gold Seameal and Scorbate (Vitamin C) and have for months. She had a touchy stomach...grain intolerant, bad vaccination experiences, coccidia...and was underweight.

I have started dialing back her feed as she's 60 pounds now and filling out well. She did have a spurt in the last month or two.

I can't do raw in my house...I recognize the benefits but it's not practical for us in the near future.

I would like to switch her over to Innova Evo, but I always understood Innova puppy to be good through 12 mos and then Evo could kick in at that point.

Would welcome feedback from anybody, and yeah, I know RAW is preferable. :lol: I am going to cycle in some glucosamine/MSM supplements soon.

Alicia Mertz

· #5 · Mar 29, 2006

Jaeger suffered from a late bout with Pano, too - he was just over 2 years old at the time. It came on so suddenly that I felt sure he'd blown his ACL, just as they thought Jenni's dog, Caleb, had done. Fortunately, examination by an orthopedic revealed it to be Pano instead. Unfortunately, the ortho also picked up his dysplasia on the x-rays...

In any event, with a few anti-inflammatories and rest, the symptoms disappeared just as quickly as they appeared within a week or two.

Connie Sutherland

· #6 · Mar 29, 2006

Woody Taylor said:
Yeah, Connie, I always appreciate your links!

Well, she is on Innova puppy food right now and I supplement with Solid Gold Seameal and Scorbate (Vitamin C) and have for months. She had a touchy stomach...grain intolerant, bad vaccination experiences, coccidia...and was underweight.

I have started dialing back her feed as she's 60 pounds now and filling out well. She did have a spurt in the last month or two.

I can't do raw in my house...I recognize the benefits but it's not practical for us in the near future.

I would like to switch her over to Innova Evo, but I always understood Innova puppy to be good through 12 mos and then Evo could kick in at that point.

Would welcome feedback from anybody, and yeah, I know RAW is preferable. :lol: I am going to cycle in some glucosamine/MSM supplements soon.

Can a breeder kick in here? What I've read is that a large breed or a dog with symptoms of Pano should be taken off puppy food. Anyone else?

G

· #7 · Mar 29, 2006

I'm not a breeder, but I JUST talked to the ortho vet about this and he said it's really all just speculation; they don't know for sure WHY pano shows up, and the food theories are not consistent. He actually thinks that the dogs who are protein deprived have more problems later on. He asks background info on dogs who need ortho surgery later in life. Dr. Pitcairn also concedes that depriving a growing puppy of necessary protein can do more harm than good.

I have also heard that EVO can be fed to puppies, if you want to go the route of no puppy food. Evo is based on raw, contains no grain, and may be a good alternative. I use it when I can't feed raw,but if your dog is not used to raw, tread lightly; it is VERY rich! Keep it in mind when switching...don't give up in a week b/c of loose stools.

Connie Sutherland

· #8 · Mar 29, 2006

Jenni Williams said:
I'm not a breeder, but I JUST talked to the ortho vet about this and he said it's really all just speculation; they don't know for sure WHY pano shows up, and the food theories are not consistent. He actually thinks that the dogs who are protein deprived have more problems later on. He asks background info on dogs who need ortho surgery later in life. Dr. Pitcairn also concedes that depriving a growing puppy of necessary protein can do more harm than good. ....I have also heard that EVO can be fed to puppies, if you want to go the route of no puppy food. Evo is based on raw, contains no grain, and may be a good alternative. I use it when I can't feed raw,but if your dog is not used to raw, tread lightly; it is VERY rich! Keep it in mind when switching...don't give up in a week b/c of loose stools.

Also, diarrhea from a new food reacts really well to a little canned plain pumpkin (not pumpkin pie filling), with no down side (IMO). I always have a can on hand.

I've had really good success with The Honest Kitchen (I get the \"Embark\") for times when I'm rushed or out of ingredients. I was surprised that there was no adverse reaction to the change back and forth (from raw), but maybe it's because THK is dehydrated raw as opposed to cooked. I go the add-in route when I use it, usually. The site even suggests add-ins, while also saying it is complete food. Anyway, works for me as a backup.

I've heard good things about Evo, too.

Connie Sutherland

· #9 · Mar 30, 2006

Woody Taylor said:
...... I always appreciate your links!........

Woody, I have not forgotten this. I will post the links by tomorrow. Today kind of got away from me! :lol:

Woody Taylor

Discussion Starter · #10 · Mar 30, 2006

Thanks for both of your respective input.

Annie was underweight for some time so I deliberately jacked up her portions around four months or so. She put on ten pounds quick--no fat, but still a lot and probably too quickly. If nothing else I've already dialed down her portion sizes to the recommended portions for Innova puppy. She's 60 lbs now, I'm thinking she will not go much past 70...but Jenni you scared me in another thread when she said hers was still growing at 24 months (?). Yeesh. 70 pounds is more than fine with me. She's also got her first heat coming on, then the spay...so I need to start cutting portions as it is.

Connie, take your time, it's always more than appreciated.

G

· #11 · Mar 30, 2006

He's 28mos, Woody :lol: :twisted: ! He's only 94lbs; is that too big?

:lol: I'd kill to have him 70lbs-perfect size. I just was pointing that out b/c people think they're done growing, and I like to err on the side of caution (only about dogs! :lol: ) b/c of HD and things like that. I still don't run him hard.

Connie Sutherland

· #12 · Mar 30, 2006

Jenni Williams said:
He's 28mos, Woody :lol: :twisted: ! He's only 94lbs; is that too big? :lol: I'd kill to have him 70lbs-perfect size. I just was pointing that out b/c people think they're done growing, and I like to err on the side of caution (only about dogs! :lol: ) b/c of HD and things like that. I still don't run him hard.

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that long-bone and growth-plate development are generally over at about 18 months........that would mean that \"true\" Pano also could not occur after that time.

Weight is so subjective, so connected to height and bone structure. But the old \"rules\" about looking down from above and seeing a nice \"waist\" and especially the one about \"easily feeling all ribs, but not easily SEEING them\" are (IMO) excellent rules of thumb in between vet weigh-ins.

And having done so much reading about Pano, OA, and other joint issues, I will never let my dogs become overweight again. Just like us -- a dozen or more health issues can be exacerbated with extra weight.

With chubby dogs in the past, raw did help with their being satisfied with the appropriate amount of food. But I also used the cooked, ground, greens as a way to \"fill up the plate\" and help them not be so sad at the small amount of food in the diet dish. No grains.....just the low-cal green vegetables. This is not backed up anywhere I know of by experts, so my disclaimer is that it's my own thing, used on dogs who HAD to lose weight or be crippled with OA, and although my vet agreed, she's not a big student of nutrition (esp raw).

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G

· #13 · Mar 30, 2006

That's what I thought, too, Connie. The xrays were shown to me, and the pano was obvious. I'd seen pano on xrays before, and his whole femur was inflamed with it. The vet also explained how nothing else looks like pano, and that the first specialist should've checked him out further, since he was indicating pain on the bone itself. It could've been cancer. He also showed me on the hips where there was still growth plate showing...he won't get noticably bigger (I pray), but they're not fully closed yet. He's just incredibly slow to mature all around, I guess. He said the oldest dog he's ever seen w/pano was 4, and it was a dog who had had it so many times and for so long that it just never fully resolved itself. The dog was NOT still growing. It made me think I should redo his hip xrays after his growth plates close...

Connie Sutherland

· #14 · Mar 30, 2006

Jenni Williams said:
That's what I thought, too, Connie. The xrays were shown to me, and the pano was obvious. I'd seen pano on xrays before, and his whole femur was inflamed with it. The vet also explained how nothing else looks like pano, and that the first specialist should've checked him out further, since he was indicating pain on the bone itself. It could've been cancer. He also showed me on the hips where there was still growth plate showing...he won't get noticably bigger (I pray), but they're not fully closed yet. He's just incredibly slow to mature all around, I guess. He said the oldest dog he's ever seen w/pano was 4, and it was a dog who had had it so many times and for so long that it just never fully resolved itself. The dog was NOT still growing. It made me think I should redo his hip xrays after his growth plates close...

Wow..........yeah, I would too. This \"late Pano\" is new to me, and while of course I'm sorry you have to know about it first-hand, I'm grateful to have the subject come up.

Connie Sutherland

· #15 · Mar 30, 2006

Woody Taylor said:
.........Diagnostic impressions: So far the hips are okay but follow up suggested; normal elbows, what looks to a little panosteitis probably sub clinical in several of the front lim structures; the owner should just be told this may be a problem.\" .....
So, anyway. Based on my reading, panosteitis sounds pretty much like growing pains.

Yes.

I rounded up a couple of URLs. One of my favorites (MaristaVet) is eluding me at the moment (on this subject), but I'll find it.

Anyway:

http://www.upei.ca/cidd/Diseases/musculoskeletal/panosteitis.htm

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1561&articleid=466

http://www.vetinfo.com/dencyclopedia/depano.html

http://www.newmanveterinary.com/lameness.htm#Panosteitis

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Woody Taylor

Discussion Starter · #16 · Mar 31, 2006

Thank you Connie...great, great info. You (and whoever) should start a wiki connected to this site compiling all these links. Think about it, you've got a gift for it, it would be awesome to have all of this compiled and modifiable by a community of users.

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