[Bob Scott]

Not sure where to put this.
One of the people at club is raising a working line pup from birth. Mom started in labor on the 51st day. She continued labor off and on for 3 days. (under vet supervision) One pup survived. Mom dried up. The pup is now 35 days old from a 54th day birth.
The pup seems quite healthy now, and doing fine.
My question: What, if any health/temperment/socialization problems can be expected with this pup. The pup did not nurse, so no colostrum (sp). Do the different commercial formulas provide this?
I've tube fed pups in the past but they weren't separated from mom or the litter. This pup has been an "orphan" from birth.
I've read the pup could be dog agressive, overly dependent on humans, etc. What are the expieriences of the breeders here.

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

I don´t have any experience with this (thank god!). But the dog could probably have some difficulties with other dogs ´cause puppy didn´t learn the doglanguage. A solution is to put the puppy with another litter or enough other dogs around him that will nurse/play with it.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

I don´t have any experience with this (thank god!). But the dog could probably have some difficulties with other dogs ´cause puppy didn´t learn the doglanguage. A solution is to put the puppy with another litter or enough other dogs around him that will nurse/play with it.

Obviously I have no experience here, but I've come across the topic several times in research, and the answer I always read is the one Selena gave.........the sooner the better.

I can give references if you want something to print out.

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

I would be curious about the health issue in regards to vaccinating the little guy, but after 35 days of no problems, He should turn out OK.

I have seen this done many times, but not on a dog that you would work. They were always house pets, and the houses they lived in were nearly petting zoos, so I really never did see anything crazy.



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[Jerry Lyda]

Bob, keep us posted on this. Interesting

 

[Bob Scott]

Interesting on many sides. This pup is also a half sister (same dam) to my dog Thunder. The breeder had intended to keep one of the pups out of this litter. I sure hope he hasn't changed his plans. Watching this pup grow and develope is going to be a learning expierience.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Interesting on many sides. This pup is also a half sister (same dam) to my dog Thunder. The breeder had intended to keep one of the pups out of this litter. I sure hope he hasn't changed his plans. Watching this pup grow and develope is going to be a learning expierience.

For all of us, too, I hope, Bob!

 

[Stacia Porter]

Not sure where to put this.
One of the people at club is raising a working line pup from birth. Mom started in labor on the 51st day. She continued labor off and on for 3 days. (under vet supervision) One pup survived. Mom dried up. The pup is now 35 days old from a 54th day birth.
The pup seems quite healthy now, and doing fine.
My question: What, if any health/temperment/socialization problems can be expected with this pup. The pup did not nurse, so no colostrum (sp). Do the different commercial formulas provide this?
I've tube fed pups in the past but they weren't separated from mom or the litter. This pup has been an "orphan" from birth.
I've read the pup could be dog agressive, overly dependent on humans, etc. What are the expieriences of the breeders here.

Bob, I can answer on the colostrum issues. I'm a human lactation educator, and other mammals work just about the same...

The colostrum contains all of the mother's antibodies to the various diseases she's encountered during her lifetime; they last about 6 months in the pup's body. Without colostrum you have to be super careful about exposing this puppy to pathogens.

Mammals' milk contains over 300 known ingredients. Marketed formulas for puppies (and humans) only contain about 30 ingredients, and none are in the forms found in mother-produced milk. Most human babies fed formula have altered gut flora, which can lead to higher instance of tummy upset. The gut also absorbs more waste than a human baby fed its mother's milk, which can lead to chronic health problems later in life (such as Chron's disease, irritable bowel syndrome, and obesity). This pup also may be more predisposed to skeletal issues from having been handfed, eyesight may be affected. The pup may also be more prone to cancer b/c many of the chemicals in mammals' milk protects against cancerous cells. Its prematurity adds a whole nother list of possible health issues, including respiratory infections b/c the lungs are the last thing to develop in mammals.

I would personally adjust the pup's age by 10 days to account for its 54th day birth when consideirng vaccinations. When a human baby is born prematurely this is what's done (adjusted age) b/c the baby not only had to catch up with its term-born counterparts, but then had to begin developing normally. I suspect the same applies to puppies.

I hope this turns out well for everyone involved...

 

[Sarah Hall]

I have raised over 10 litters of puppies and 5 litters of kittens, yes, bottle-fed them all. As far as the behavioral aspets of this pup being alone, it could either be of no consequence, or could be catastrophic.
Puppies learn how to socialize and play properly during the first twelve weeks of age. If they are denied this opportunity to play, they can develope bizzare,disturbing behaviors such as self-mutilation in order to reduce tension. They will also be poorer learners, have a greater fear of people, animals and noises, and will be shyer and more antisocial. When taking a scientific look at the problem, one has to realize that a pup's communication facilities (sight, smell, hearing, touch) are all nearly at their adult conformation by the time a pup is four weeks old.
If the pup is a female, she will be a poor mother and should not be bred. Dog's maternal behavior is simply more than hormones. The pituitary hormone prolactin can induce maternal behavior but maternal duties (cleaning pups, chewing umbilical cords to proper lenght, etc.) are learned behaviors.
I've got a whole lot more, PM me your e-mail address if you'd like more.
Good luck with the pup (to your buddy).

 

[Al Curbow]

Sarah, why did you have to bottle feed 10 litters of puppies and 5 litters of kittens? Very curious,
AL

 

[Sarah Hall]

I've worked as a vet tech, also I am a volunteer puppy/kitten raiser for the local shelter/animal control and rescue groups. Kittens that are way too young are always found abandoned outside vet offices, and most of the pups were victims of bad moms. Three of the litters came from females that were bottle raised and didn't know what to do with the pups, so she decided to eat them in half instead of chew their umbilical cords properly.

 

[Bob Scott]

Stacia, great info on the colostrum. That's the info I wanted, and will pass on. Yes! the developmental age is being adjusted by ten days as per the actual born on date.
Connie, I'd love to see the references you mention.
Sarah, PM on the way!

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Stacia

Stacia,

Just a quick off-topic: I used to chair a La Leche chapter in Massachusetts. Are you involved with that (IMO) superlative org?

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Stacia, great info on the colostrum. That's the info I wanted, and will pass on. Yes! the developmental age is being adjusted by ten days as per the actual born on date.
Connie, I'd love to see the references you mention....

You'll get them! Gotta do some stupid real work now, but I'll be back!

 

[Stacia Porter]

Re: Stacia

Stacia,

Just a quick off-topic: I used to chair a La Leche chapter in Massachusetts. Are you involved with that (IMO) superlative org?

Connie,

I'm a business member of LLL :lol: . It is an awesome organization and I cannnot sing its praises (or its effect on human mommies) enough!!!

As a super side note, I'm a labor doula and deal with prenatal education (to include birthing options, pregnancy issues, lactation and newborn feeding, newborn care, and emotional transition into parenthood), emotional, physical, and informational support during the birth; and emotional and physical support after the birth (i.e. home visits, checking that baby is nursing properly, answering questions for concerned parents). I require my clients attend 9 hours of prenatal time with me devoted to education. At least 2 of those, and usually more, is mandatory breastfeeding education. I just feel it's that important.

Sarah, I am absolutely interested in your statement that bottlefed females make terrible mothers. It lends itself into some studies done concerning human lactation and the question as to whether or not breastmilk contains ingredients that further breastmilk production (as in ingredients found in breastmilk foster the horomonal development of girls who will later become women, bare children, and need to feed their young; that bottle feeding a human infant somehow disrupts this cycle).

 

[susan tuck]

I am sure not an expert in this area, but I was born in the '50's & back then, many many women did not breast feed. In fact, I think it was sort of the "norm" in middle & upper class society here in the USA. Now, I also know that when my friends had kids, almost all of them breast fed because they (unlike the previous generation) knew the benefits of it. I too, would be interested in hearing how the pup turns out.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Re: Stacia

Stacia,

Just a quick off-topic: I used to chair a La Leche chapter in Massachusetts. Are you involved with that (IMO) superlative org?

Connie,

I'm a business member of LLL :lol: . It is an awesome organization and I cannnot sing its praises (or its effect on human mommies) enough!!!

As a super side note, I'm a labor doula and deal with prenatal education (to include birthing options, pregnancy issues, lactation and newborn feeding, newborn care, and emotional transition into parenthood), emotional, physical, and informational support during the birth; and emotional and physical support after the birth (i.e. home visits, checking that baby is nursing properly, answering questions for concerned parents). I require my clients attend 9 hours of prenatal time with me devoted to education. At least 2 of those, and usually more, is mandatory breastfeeding education. I just feel it's that important.

Sarah, I am absolutely interested in your statement that bottlefed females make terrible mothers. It lends itself into some studies done concerning human lactation and the question as to whether or not breastmilk contains ingredients that further breastmilk production (as in ingredients found in breastmilk foster the horomonal development of girls who will later become women, bare children, and need to feed their young; that bottle feeding a human infant somehow disrupts this cycle).

Mod Note:

Well, my side note kinda hijacked a thread...........so how about we do it this way: Continuing discussion about human lactation can be posted at The Canine Lounge ("This is your general social forum; if it's not related to dogs, or bragging about your dog, or telling people something you'd like to share, etc., it goes in here"), and continuing discussion about canine lactation can stay here.

And so..........back to the orphaned pup in Bob's club.......

Bob, if you and Sarah care to continue this discussion (QUOTE from Sarah: If the pup is a female, she will be a poor mother and should not be bred. Dog's maternal behavior is simply more than hormones. The pituitary hormone prolactin can induce maternal behavior but maternal duties (cleaning pups, chewing umbilical cords to proper lenght, etc.) are learned behaviors. I've got a whole lot more, PM me your e-mail address if you'd like more. END) on the forum here rather than by email, I (for one) would be very interested in following it.

It might be esoteric info, that's OK! No one has to read it, and it sounds like Sarah has a lot of information that I'd really like to continue reading.

 

[Bob Scott]

Connie, excellent idea! It seems to have a pretty good following here on the forum and I'm terrible at giving second hand info.

 

[Carmen van de Kamp]

I (luckely) never had this problem, but I know that I would try to find a "foster" mom for this litter, because I also believe that they miss out on too much when fully handraising them (not out of experience or something, just a feeling I have), the same thing when a puppy is alone in the litter, within a few weeks we will welcome a GSD in our current litter to get him to learn how to handle pups from the same age and everything......I myself consider this as very important, so when I heard about her litter being born only 1 male I immediately offered it.......

 

[Connie Sutherland]

orphan puppy care

Neonatal care of orphaned pups (talking about a litter, but still has many good suggestions about things the mother would do, and now the human must do):

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...socializing&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8

Scroll down to socializing for physical (touch, how to cuddle, etc.):

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...socializing&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6&ie=UTF-8

Feeding stuff:

http://www.cockerspanielinformation.com/puppies/orphand_puppies.html

I can't find the articles about putting him in another litter, but I'll look again tomorrow. I have two, somewhere; I remember that learning posturing, not to challenge with stares, and basically what was called DogLanguage (I think) on this thread, were vital to any pup who would ever have any interaction with other dogs. I need to find them, because I think I remember advice about earlier than usual socialization with other puppies being suggested if he couldn't be put into another litter, because of all the above.