[Simon Mellick]

My 2 1/2 year old bouvier is training for personal protection. He's never had much use for a sleeve, so we've taken a step backward in training and just let him have fun with it.

Here's the first clip, it's me holding the sleeve, so he's not too bad.

http://s122.photobucket.com/albums/o243/simonmellick/?action=view&current=MOV00944.flv

And here a friend of mine with the sleeve. You can already spot how he takes training WAYYYYY too seriously (just a wee bit nervy, lol), as this is someone the dog knows and is pretty neutral with.

http://s122.photobucket.com/albums/o243/simonmellick/?action=view&current=MOV00859.flv

Simon

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

First clip.

ARE YOU WORKING OUT????? Why are you lifting the dog so much??

Second clip.

I don't get the nervy thing, was it the hesitation before the bite? Was it the vocalizing? I am not seeing what you are saying there. The dog took the sleeve and immediatly ignored your friend. What does that say???

 

[Khoi Pham]

You can minimize the stress on your dog by telling your friend to not squarely face your dog like in the video and don't look at the dog, he is putting too much pressure on the dog at this stage that is why he is growling so much and not having fun as with you, you should also put him on the leash so you can run the dog after he won the sleeve so that he won't try to kill it, he already won, he needs to learn to switch drive and enjoy the win.
Good luck.

 

[Andres Martin]

Simon...does your dog bite hard?

 

[Greg Long]

If you are only training for PP,there is no reason I can think of why your dog should enjoy biting.If you just want to play with your dog then thats fine, as long as you realize it doesnt translate much to PP except to build the bond if done correctly.
As for nerve problems...I see more handlers with nerve issues than dogs. :lol:

 

[Woody Taylor]

.If you just want to play with your dog then thats fine, as long as you realize it doesnt translate much to PP except to build the bond if done correctly.

I do not get (I would disagree, but I'm a newb) why a good foundation in prey would not translate much to PP. This was what I was after in the PP thread a few days ago. You build grip, focus, speed, confidence, bond, and stamina...and you and the dog has fun doing it. These vids would indicate that Simon's dog could use help in some of these areas.

I understand that there's a prevailing opinion that PP work is done in defense, I also do not see the logic in claims that PP work cannot be done in prey. If an ideal PP dog is well-balanced in both of these things, why would you not want a prey foundation and then go from there?

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Quote: If you are only training for PP,there is no reason I can think of why your dog should enjoy biting.

WOW!!!!!

Hey I might be a tard here, but when a dog bites.......how do you bust into that little brain to keep it from being a good thing???

Kinda like telling me that I don't have to enjoy peach cobbler. :lol:

 

[Greg Long]

I havent much desire to get into another "prey vs. defense" discussion.All I can say is that once the dog understands when it has to defend and when it absolutely must not defend,then you have a PPD for all practical purposes.Playing tug with a sleeve or suit or tug or ball on a string can build the bond between you and your dog as long as the dog knows you are always the leader.

I stand firmly by my opinion that alot of dogs protect their owners in real situations despite their training and not because of it.

As far as the bite...are you going to critic your dogs bite while he is defending your home against an intruder?

 

[Woody Taylor]

Why not? Our forum has like doubled in size since the last round and our search function sucks here.

My point is that it's pretty obvious to me that a great foundation in prey would translate over well to work in defense. Boxers (boxers) aren't threatened by speed bags but speed bags certainly give them skills they use in "real fights."

And I still don't know why a dog couldn't work well in prey in a PP situation, any more than an PSD could go out on a search and apprehend a suspect.

No bite critiques from me if my dog bites a threat. But I'd certainly make sure its inherent bite quality and gameness were up to task before I ever had expectations of it performing in that situation. Bite quality and gameness can be developed in prey, ask Don how his Airedales are working when they are chasing pigs.

 

[Greg Long]

What can a foundation in prey do that cant be achieved from working in defense besides the allmighty full calm mouthfull?

To me...purposely avoiding stress at any level in training is detrimental.

PSDs are a differrant animal than a PPD IMO.

 

[Greg Long]

Quote: If you are only training for PP,there is no reason I can think of why your dog should enjoy biting.

WOW!!!!!

Hey I might be a tard here, but when a dog bites.......how do you bust into that little brain to keep it from being a good thing???

Kinda like telling me that I don't have to enjoy peach cobbler. :lol:

I said "should" !Most if not all the working dogs today have it bred into them to bite bite bite.My little Mali pup is a prime example.Its a free country for the most part so my opinion is this sport biting behavior is not correct for work.This coincides with my opinion that the training has evolved to fit the dogs we breed today and doesnt reflect the ideal training and breeding of dogs for actual work.The PSD training is no different in that respect,they have to use the methods that produce results.The dogs that are available to them will eventually affect the methods.What dogs are available?Sportdogs.What dogs sell?Sportdogs.What eventually weakens a working breed?Sportdogs.

 

[Woody Taylor]

What can a foundation in prey do that cant be achieved from working in defense besides the allmighty full calm mouthfull?

Fun, which is what Simon said he was looking for right now. Intensity. Repetition. Bond. Obedience from excitement, rather than obedience from avoidance. Less chance of blowing out a dog who's not had the chance to develop up. Less chance of a newb to PP screwing up a dog.

To me...purposely avoiding stress at any level in training is detrimental.

Not saying that stress should be avoided. Just saying that it probably gets pretty old for everybody for it to be constant, and just guessing that you blow up a lot of dogs that way, so to speak.

PSDs are a differrant animal than a PPD IMO.

Yes, the prey-based ones like Selena's, Tim's, and Gregg's sound a lot stronger, confident, and happy to me, overall, than dogs that work constantly in defense.

 

[Greg Long]

Fun, which is what Simon said he was looking for right now. Intensity. Repetition. Bond. Obedience from excitement, rather than obedience from avoidance. Less chance of blowing out a dog who's not had the chance to develop up. Less chance of a newb to PP screwing up a dog.

What does fun have to do with a dog protecting it's handler?Intensity in prey is at different level than in defense,like the difference between an NFL linebacker and soldier in Iraq.Bond is definitely built through prey/play among other things.Working through stress builds a stronger bond and trust.Odedience from excitement is not control but only the illusion of control and therefore should only be referred to as "play" or a "game" and not obedience.I agree there is less chance of revealing a dogs weaknesses by a prey foundation but how can you screw up a dog with poor genetics in the first place?The Newb [email protected]#$ is getting old Woody,step up your skills and quit dwelling on the newb stuff. :lol: Being new to working dogs does not mean you arent a capable trainer.




Not saying that stress should be avoided. Just saying that it probably gets pretty old for everybody for it to be constant, and just guessing that you blow up a lot of dogs that way, so to speak.


I dont think you understand the concept,you work a dog through ever increasing stressful situations very gradually.You dont "blow up" a dog.You read the dog and take the dog as far as it's genetics will allow.Done correctly there isnt any forcing and you never put too much stress on a dog much less a pup.In most cases the handler is under as much if not more stress than the dog.You dont "train the dog" you "build the team".

I never said prey based/trained dogs are totally ineffective..just not ideal.My Dutchie is from Selena's stock on both the top and bottom and I have worked with an own son of Selena's "Rocky" BTW.

 

[Simon Mellick]

Simon...does your dog bite hard?

When he is working against someone that he considers a threat, he bites really hard. Not full, but super hard.

As far as the defense vs. prey argument...

This dogs lives for defense. He'll fully commit to multiple, INTENSE attackers. He'll put up with all sorts of stuff to stay engaged that you'd never think he would when you see his nerve issues pop up in every day life. When the traditional prey foundation and training didn't take, I let him mature and then let him work in defense (I didn't make an effort to illicit this response, I just let him respond naturally instead of constantly striving for a prey response).

But then what? I've got a dog that serves his purpose as a guardian, but isn't very social, and doesn't enjoy the training the same way most working dogs do. So I'm stepping back from the serious training for a bit and letting him have fun. Worst case scenario, the work doesn't transfer over to the PP work, but the dog and I both have fun trying. Or, I end up with a dog that enjoys training, is more confident, and has better obedience since the bite can be used as a reward instead of a neutral thing unrelated to obedience.

"The dog took the sleeve and immediatly ignored your friend. What does that say???"

Jeff, he only did that because that was someone the dog has known since he was a puppy, and viewed it as a game of tug. Under other circumstances, the sleeve's not even there in the dog's eyes; he only bites the sleeve if that's all you'll give him. Equipment fixation is the LAST thing I need to worry about with him, although you wouldn't know it with those clips.

Simon

 

[Simon Mellick]

I've never seen a dog that impressed me much that worked in any one drive in particular. IMO, drive interaction is necessary for an effective, stable dog. Unless of course it's fight drive, which coincidentally, sounds a lot like drive-interation to me...

 

[Simon Mellick]

What does fun have to do with a dog protecting it's handler?

For that once in a lifetime occurance where my dog protects me, I couldn't care less if my dog wags his tail. But every week when I have someone light the dog up? Ya, it's important to me that the dog enjoys the training. If that wasn't what it was about, I'd just stick a knife in my pocket.

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

Greg: Dick´s Rocky :wink:

I like prey-built dogs more, ´cause you can built (even)more confidence.
The only breed which have seen work properly in defense, after being prey built, are GSD´s.

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

A good dog is a balanced dog. I don't like the "I don't care why hes biting as long as he bites" mentality i see more and more of lately.

 

[Greg Long]

A good dog is a balanced dog.

What exactly is a balanced dog?Can you describe a balanced dog without using "drives"?Is a balanced dog a "good" dog?

I don't like the "I don't care why hes biting as long as he bites" mentality i see more and more of lately.

I couldnt agree more..the dog needs to be serious.Call it what you want.

 

[Tim Martens]

i think what greg is talking about is a more "hardcore" approach to a PPD. correct me if i'm wrong greg, but in essence you are saying that since a PPD will be working primarily (if not exclusively) in defense, put it in at the earliest possible stages. a genetically correct dog will not have problems with the stress and other issues involved with working in defense. if this "screws up the dog" then it isn't a dog he'd want to do PP work with anyways and he'd start over with a dog that could handle it.

this is sound logic. the only problem i see is the person who already has a dog that they've bonded with and then wants to turn it into a PPD. if the dog can't handle it then what? you're either left with going with the traditional "build them up through prey" model and realize there is the possibility that the dog won't be there when you need it or scrap the family pet.