[Bob Scott]

I'm looking for a honest, civil (Websterian version :lol: ) discussion on a touchy subject.
No arguements intended or desired. Just a legitimate discussion among friends. If you intend to get upset, please don't reply. That's not what this new form is all about. I've posting this question with Mike's permission.
Ok, here goes!
"Fight drive". Does it exist? Why or why not? How do you describe what others refer to as fight drive. Is it just another form of "gameness" as the bulldog people use the word? Wilingness to continue the fight even when being punished? Can this "trait" be trained? Is it genetic?
Lets prove this is the forum we want, and know it can be. A honest discussion/dissagreement among friends who have a common love of dog training. Marquis of Queensberry rules apply! :wink:

 

[David Frost]

Personally, I feel a good discussion can even become heated. Meaning, reasonable people can be very passionate about what they believe, have experienced and have performed. What ruins a good discussion is when someone makes it personal. Having said that, two things I've learned in the years I've been a dog trainer, 1. There are many terms, often times people will be arguing different terminology, yet after some discussion they find both terms mean the same thing. 2. The only thing two dog trainers agree on is; the third one is wrong.

Yes I believe some dogs have "fight" drive. I don't believe all dogs have it. I don't think it is something that can be trained into a dog. I don't necessarily think it's genetic in the sense that a bitch and a stud with fight drive is no guarentee all the pups will have it. As far as the term "gameness" I can see where that is a case of terminology and that it may be the same thing.

I think this could be an interesting discussion and I await the responses from other folks. I'm sure we are all adult enough to keep it clean.

DFrost

 

[Tim Martens]

Personally, I feel a good discussion can even become heated. Meaning, reasonable people can be very passionate about what they believe, have experienced and have performed. What ruins a good discussion is when someone makes it personal. Having said that, two things I've learned in the years I've been a dog trainer, 1. There are many terms, often times people will be arguing different terminology, yet after some discussion they find both terms mean the same thing. 2. The only thing two dog trainers agree on is; the third one is wrong.

Yes I believe some dogs have "fight" drive. I don't believe all dogs have it. I don't think it is something that can be trained into a dog. I don't necessarily think it's genetic in the sense that a bitch and a stud with fight drive is no guarentee all the pups will have it. As far as the term "gameness" I can see where that is a case of terminology and that it may be the same thing.

I think this could be an interesting discussion and I await the responses from other folks. I'm sure we are all adult enough to keep it clean.

DFrost

if you think it does exist, then please describe what your definition of it is.

this isn't just meant for DFrost, but anyone who believes it exists...

 

[Bob Scott]

Thanks David! Some dogs are referred to as total prey monsters. Willing to take a lot of punishment to get the objective accomplished. That could also be another view of the term. Either one could have a genetic basis, but, as you say, no garantee all, or any of the pups will carry it.
Some say the French ring dogs are total prey. If so, that doesn't make the bite hurt any less.

 

[Anne Jones]

Well, Bob, this should be interesting .... Hopefully, we can all agree to disagree.
I am somewhat new to working dogs...but I'll give it a small shot. I think that fight drive is an extension of prey drive taken to its most extreme level. I also think, that it is genetic & most mature dogs don't have it. If they did, than any mature working line dog ( asume we are referring to GSD) could be a k9 patrol dog working the streets & I don't think that is true. I also think that it is questionable as to wheather all the dogs working the street possess this trait & in the interest of public & handler safety, they should. But I also think that since not all dogs possess this trait, I think that it is hard to find dogs that do. I think that most mature dogs woking with the decoy & going between prey and, defence can slip into fight drive (if they possess it) when working with a very intense, combative, serious decoy that is pushing the intensity of the 'fight' with the dog. I am sure that many will disagree with me & that's fine....as I am still learning what these dogs are all about & am interested in what the very experienced people on this forum have to say on this subject.

 

[Bob Scott]

Tim, IMHO it's a dog that loves to fight for the sake of the fight itself. It isn't doing so out of defence, but nothing more then knowing it can win. I know a lot of that has to do with building a young dogs confidence, but as I think most will agree, some dogs will never reach this level of confidence.

 

[Anne Jones]

I should have added as I see David did while I was writting my post, is that even if genetically one of the dogs ot both that are mated posses it doesn't mean that the pups will have. By genetic, I meant that it can't be training into a dog if it doesn't have it.

 

[Bob Scott]

Tim, I know your one who doesn't believe in it. If I'm correct in that, then why not? How do you view what is referred to as fight drive?

 

[Anne Jones]

Bob, do you think that only a very confidant dog will have fight drive? Or is it just there in the dog, period & has nothing to do with wheather the dog have been raised in such a way to become a very confidant dog. Is it only that they dog knows that he can win thats makes him have 'fight' drive? I guess if that is the case, does that mean that any well raised extremely confidant dog should have 'fight' drive.

 

[Bob Scott]

Anne,
IMHO, I don't think that just being well raised and trained will give this to the dog. I also believe that even a dog with the correct genetics can also be ruined with improper training. I don't think it has to be coupled with sharpness, aggression, anti-social, rank behavior, etc, although these traights sometimes go together.
Confidence takes many different forms. Confidence in high places, swimming, with people, etc.

 

[Woody Taylor]

Bob, when behaviorists talk about "fight or flight" tendencies, what do you think they are talking about? Do you think there is any connection between this basic animal behavior (dog or not) and the fight drive you all describe?

When I first started reading all this stuff a few months ago, I thought when people said "fight drive" they were literally referring to a physiological reaction in a dog that is very stressed out to the point of either thinking it had to kill or be killed and would, in turn, stick around or bail on the situation.

 

[Bob Scott]

Woody, what your describing is defence. Fight OR flight is a survival tactic. A wild animal will only fight when it has no other choice. Food and sex being the exception, but those two in themselves are survival.
As Anne said, she feels fight drive is an extream extension of prey. It is also sometimes looked at as an extream extension of defence.
What I believe to be fight drive, wouldn't be productive in nature. That's one of the reasons it's so elusive in most dogs.

 

[Lou Castle]

I believe that fight drive exists, just as do prey and defense. Here is my definition of those three combat drives.

Prey drive - involves the catching, killing and eating of prey. It's satisfied by killing the prey or in the case of a decoy, having him become motionless.

Defense drive - Involved in survival of the individual. A dog defending himself from a perceived thread. It's satisfied by the dog surviving the encounter with the perceived threat.

Fight drive - Involved in the detaining or driving off of an opponent. It's satisfied by the dog detaining or driving off his opponent.

While there may be an overlap of these drives at any given moment, the dog is operating primarily in one of the at a time. I don't think that fight drive is an outgrowth of any of the other drives. I think it exists alone. I don't think that it's a combination of either of the other drives. While most dogs have both prey and defense drives, not all dogs have a significant level of fight drive.

How these drives exist and how they show up can be seen in my article on Dr. P's website called "The Stakeout Test." http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle1.htm

 

[Bob Scott]

Lou, I've read your stakeout test many times. Love it!

 

[Tim Martens]

Tim, IMHO it's a dog that loves to fight for the sake of the fight itself. It isn't doing so out of defence, but nothing more then knowing it can win. I know a lot of that has to do with building a young dogs confidence, but as I think most will agree, some dogs will never reach this level of confidence.

lou's definition varies greatly from most people's view, so i won't even discuss it. not saying i disagree with it, but most people buy into bob's definition.

my trainer (who has been training dogs for over 30 years) would tell you that dogs only have 3 "drives" which are for food, shelter and sex. for the purposes of this discussion, i don't think we need to get into the exact definition of a "drive". if you except that prey and defense are "drives", then we'll start with that common ground.

for so many people who believe in fight drive and with the abundance of video content on the internet, why can nobody produce a video of a dog in "fight drive"? i've literally seen hundreds of videos of dogs working and nobody has said "look at the fight drive in this dog". somebody show it to me, because i'd love to see this newly made up drive.

there was an excellent discussion of this topic on the odinhaus board. i'm going to copy/paste an excellent post in that thread:

"A couple of base ideas:

- Any time that the term drive is used, it implies a genetic predisposition to act a certain way.

- Most ethologist believe in a specific group of natural aggresion (pack, territitorial, social, guarding (food,bounty, etc), sex, rage, defensive, prey) I am sure I left a few out.

Now, having said that... in order to have Fight Drive, there must be a genetically acquired trait that 'drives' the dog to exhibit outward aggression in a manner that does not jive within the prey/defense paradigm.

Prey and defensive, hunt, pack, etc drives are commonly selected, and bred for... yet fight seems to be a trait that we (humans) cannot select for. WHY??

Many say that it is a late-maturing trait that only crops up in adult dogs that have had appropriate training.... This sounds more like experience/confidence than a drive. Anyone else?

If it was genetic, it would not require nuturing to manifest... all truly genetic behaviors manifest on their own... granted to varying degrees based on training/experience.

Also, as someone else stated much earlier, if fight were a naturally occuring drive, it would be diametrically opposed to the concept of natural selection as fighting with no direct survival benefit would lead to the extinction of a line.

I read what Bill said about man-made selection.. and I agree to a point... but in order for man to select on a trait... it has to exist... and it could not exist for the reason stated earlier...

The only other explanation I can accept would be if fight drive was a mental retardation inherent in specific lines.... retardation and mutation are the only genetic exceptions to nature's rules.

so, how dumb am I? "

that post was made by Matt Moore. he expanded very eloquently on one of the things i brought up about natural selection...

 

[Bob Scott]

Excellent point of view Tim. Thank you.
This was my point on it being so hard to breed for. If it was a natural drive/trait it would eliminate that particular dog, or any species that had it. I could easily accept that it is/was a genetic flaw that man has bred for.
I do agree totally that you wont see any videos with it stairing back at you. It would be like a Pitbull's gameness. If that was a natural trait. there would be no dogs at all. They are bred for traits.
Thee are many lines of GSDs, Mals, JRTs even, that wont tollerate another dog around them. These also aren't traights that you'll find in a natural setting. Why then cant fight drive be bred for?!
Again, thank you for another view!

 

[Lou Castle]

lou's definition varies greatly from most people's view, so i won't even discuss it. not saying i disagree with it, but most people buy into bob's definition.

My definitions are same as those proposed by the German dog trainers decades ago. They're the same as those used by such trainers as Donn Yarnall, who founded the LAPD K-9 unit over 25 years ago and they're also used by Wendell Nope of the Utah Police K-9 Academy.

my trainer (who has been training dogs for over 30 years) would tell you that dogs only have 3 "drives" which are for food, shelter and sex. for the purposes of this discussion, i don't think we need to get into the exact definition of a "drive". if you except that prey and defense are "drives", then we'll start with that common ground.

I think that the only reason to even consider drives in training is to accomplish the end of training (in my case) a dog for personal protection or for LE (law enforcement) work. If you can get that done with three drives or if you need 30 to get that done, it doesn't make any difference to me. As long as the job gets done.

for so many people who believe in fight drive and with the abundance of video content on the internet, why can nobody produce a video of a dog in "fight drive"?

The Donn Yarnall video produced by Dogtra called the "Guidance System" shows dogs exhibiting the three drives I've described.

i'd love to see this newly made up drive.

"Fight drive" as I use the term isn't new. It's decades old.

Prey and defensive, hunt, pack, etc drives are commonly selected, and bred for... yet fight seems to be a trait that we (humans) cannot select for. WHY??

Gonna have to disagree with this. 30-40 years ago fight drive was common in dog trained for SchH in Germany. It gives a great dog for real fights but prey drive gives much more of a show. A dog whose drive is satisfied by merely detaining his opponent simply won't look as good as one who needs to subdue his opponent in order that his drive be satisfied. And "looking good" is what impresses judges. So the breeding switched from producing dogs that had lots of fight drive to dogs that had lots of prey drive. Most police dogs in the US are imports from Europe where the sport people, for the most part, control the breeding. LE is only a small side business, just as it is in this country.

Many say that it is a late-maturing trait that only crops up in adult dogs that have had appropriate training....

I'm not one of those people. It can show up in a dog that has had absolutely no training.

If it was genetic, it would not require nuturing to manifest...

It doesn't take nurturing. It does take maturing.

if fight were a naturally occuring drive, it would be diametrically opposed to the concept of natural selection as fighting with no direct survival benefit would lead to the extinction of a line.

If you use your definition you're right. But if you use mine, you're wrong.

so, how dumb am I? "

Not dumb at all. If you believed in fight drive you could use it in your training, if you trained for real combat. (Pardon my ignorance, you may train dogs for real combat). If you train for sport you don't need it and it may even hinder your work if a dog has it. But if you're happy with the results of your training, then so am I!

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

OK, you sucked me in. First, Lou Castle has to limit any response to three paragraphs tops, 'cause no way can I type enough to keep up!!!! :lol: Good to see you here.

So, I have been thinking of this for a while, and while I will never see this stupid, stupid fight "drive" I am still trying to figure what people are seeing to have come up with this. Many many times people describe drive and I have no idea what they are talking about. Just today, one of my club members was saying how his dog was medium drive. The dog has just enough to MAYBE do the work, and it is medium. WOW. So I started thinking, well everyone can only go on what they have experienced. Maybe they are seeing something more than they are used to, so it seems like something special.

So, painfully, I started thinking about fast and slow twitch muscles. Stay with me.......easy,

We all have fast and slow twitch muscles. So why are only some of us really fast, or can jump really high????

So maybe, OH JUST maybe, there is an occasional anomolie that has exactly the right amount of ___________ and the exact right amount of __________, and __________ and _____________creating in a dog what you call "fight drive" This would explain the maturity thing, the character thing, the rareness thing, the drive thing, the not training for it thing.

I still cry BS, I am going to look at this stake out test and see what that dog is doing. He better be in "fight drive" or I am gonna be pissed. How DARE he "F" with my theory. Stupid dog.

More than likely ya'll are still full of sh...........enanagins. :lol:

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

Damnit Lou, where is the stinkin video of the dog in fight drive??????????????????????

OK, everyone needs to get some video of a dog they think has fight drive. and not just working the decoy. Lets settle this for once and for all. If you cannot come up with the fight drive dog video, then I go back to crying BS....BS......BS and laughing at you. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Also, if you are new to dog training, I would like to see what you are considering "HIGH" drive dogs. This is also something I am curious about. We got some video last weekend, but we cannot seem to figure out how to get it on the internet without it being 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch. I am also going to borrow my buddy's camera and try it and see if it works out better.

I knew I should of studied computers out of high school. :x

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

I agree with Lou and i´m happy he typed it so I won´t have to :lol: .


A note on the site: I hate defence drive in a working dog, for me it is a reason to get rid of the dog.
Prey oke, fight oke but not a dog who actually want to run ´caus he is feared.

I don´t think i´ve an example on fightdrive on tape, but i will search, other wise i can tape something soon :wink: