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And this is why forums are such a valuable training tool. It is refreshing to learn a new, and maybe better, way to train certain exercises. For me, the recent post and video made by a member on how she trains the flip finish was very cool. I couldn't wait to give it a go and although I was all left footed in the beginning, I got a rythym and had a blast.
Dude, not seen that thread, whats the thread called and which section is it in?
 

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For me, the big picture is more important. Based on the big picture is how I train the details. I believe you can easily lose sight of the big picture by always training in small pieces and don't really consciously think about or know how to put it all together to get to a more advanced level. I see a lot of trainers drown in details because they fail to see the big picture. - Greg
I agree. No matter how much one trains the details, the big picture has to be foremost. I learned from some very good trainers over here who held the big picture in front of my eyes. Without this you can't go forward.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Gillian

this part isn't clear to me :

"I learned from some very good trainers over here who held the big picture in front of my eyes."

will u explain this using an example during a training session you have had ?

TIA :)
 

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I mean that without the "big picture" you can't just blithely train the separate entities.

However your dog 's potentialities lie in the separate disciplines you have to face the big picture if you wish to trial.

Sometimes there is no point in trying to push the dog in Protection if you realise the dog has reached its limit and can at best earn 90 Points. If its Obedience can total 85-90, don't push this.

If tracking is good (around 90) leave it. On the day, you might have good or mediocre weather conditions depending on the Trial. Worlds can mean a difference of 1-3 days at different times, temperatures etc.


So, this is my output on your question. However you have trained your dog (to the best of your abilities) at some point only the big picture is the one on which to focus.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Tx Gillian

i think i sorta get it, but i gotta read that a few times and try and get it to sink in.

i was gonna ask for some more clarification on training days versus trial days, but my questions didn't make sense to me after i wrote em so no sense asking them to you yet //lol//

is this part right ?
the big picture is the max number of points you think the dog is capable of at the trial in the various disciplines ?
 

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I'm a lurker and surely don't know much.
Coming from and equine training background and getting back into schutzhund after 15 years away from it.
Everything is so different for me this go around.
I have learned to date: how much I don't know!
 

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as I am noob at this whole dog training world I am more of a reader and taker of info rather than a giver as i am afraid i would just say something totally dumb...but thanks all for shareing your knowledge. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #30
John

my purpose for this thread was aimed at people who don't post that much or people who are new ... it has been stated by a a few that both the details and the big picture are important and that implies it's worth discussing

you have posted here and clearly are serious about training. your opinions will not be considered dumb even if you feel the Q is dumb and not worth discussing :)

can you try applying the question this way :
if you have gotten training advice that has helped you, was the advice more of a "big picture" category, or did it fall more into the "details" category ?

as much as you are you as able to use actual training examples the better imo.

- i don't want this issue to become totally abstract or philosophical even tho i know it's hard not to do, and that happens a LOT when we talk about other areas (like the various types of "drive")

- it may not be easy to put in words that can relate to specific training but i was assuming we all have opinions in this area.
- if you go thru past posts you will see both sides of the issue being used to justify comments and advice others have posted, and that's another reason i wanted to talk about them on their own merits - the pros and cons
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Amber
we have had others here who came from equine backgrounds

there are similarities in training techniques that have been brought up before as they related to dogs :)
 

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Discussion Starter #32
i also think that the big picture might be crystal clear to the owner, handler or trainer, but i think it is impossible to communicate the big picture to a dog.
- when you say dogs "generalise" are you using that term to explain how the dog is seeing the big picture ? i think that term could be debated either way

there are often detailed steps to get to a trained response that will not be obvious to the dog at all, and there might be some steps that, that if you do them at the wrong time or in the wrong order, might actually make the dog worse and set u back.

timing is always critical in almost any type of training and it is REAL easy to get that detail out of order.....even for a very experienced owner/trainer/handler

another detail is proofing. when, how and how many to add to the list. it's usually mandatory before you can ever expect the dog to perform in all environments and under distraction.
- it is also required to ensure the dog is crystal clear on when/where and how it is expected to respond to commands
- leave out these details and you will often have a dog that goes to hell at the worst times

i'd like to hear actual examples applied to training of why the big picture is more important for those who take that position
 

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Discussion Starter #33
to clarify ...
when i wrote this :
"there are often detailed steps to get to a trained response that will not be obvious to the dog at all"

i did NOT mean the steps would not be clear to the dog.

i meant the dog might not understand the step in relation to the big picture you have, unless it was a very simple behaviour being taught. then it might have an "ahah" moment
 

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there are often detailed steps to get to a trained response that will not be obvious to the dog at all, and there might be some steps that, that if you do them at the wrong time or in the wrong order, might actually make the dog worse and set u back.
I'd like to get the ball rolling on this just to show that we are all human and make mistakes. It also supports the statement above...

I taught my current dog the article search. He was bang up and I was proud of the job I had done. Then it was time to put it into real world practical use when a discarded gun was found by another officer. I thought, "this is a great opportunity to do a real world article search and see how he does". Well, the dog was clueless. He never indicated on the gun even though he could see it and nearly stepped on it. I was embarrassed, and pissed off. Then it dawned on me that I had only used my odor during the training as it was something I taught him during my down time and not during formal training sessions with other people. Once I figured out the all important detail (other human odor) was missing from his training I immediately went out and did a number of searches utilizing other people's odor. Problem fixed and proofed within a couple of days.

So, I knew what the big picture was supposed to look like and i trained it in a detailed manner but, An important aspect of that training was omitted and the dog failed by no fault of his own. Now, if it was MY gun that was lost I would have been good to go:) but it wasn't. I've seen other handlers train the same exercise and try to get there too fast by skipping steps. Their dogs are mediocre at best on articles, or it actually took them much longer to become proficient.

My experience supports why I feel both are important. Others may feel differently or are just better at it than me to do it differently.
 

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I've been there Howard, course with the mastiff that dog notices everything out of place and I probably would complicate things if I tried to get too specific by controlling what she's naturally inclined to do. Anyway, I think that's a great example where the big picture matters but if you aren't aware of the details that impact achieving success with the big picture, all the attention to detail in the world isn't going to matter.

Different context for me. It happened with my dutch. I exposed her to everything I could think of, every surface, environment, noise, retrieve items (pvc, aluminum, copper, wood, glass, etc.). But when the day came, I missed something very criticial and obvious element and it showed the day I had her tested by the PD for single purpose application.

It wasn't until someone who knew better explained the situation to me that I realized what I had overlooked. The officer suggested I bring the dog back out in a few months. Unfortunately he's gone now - KIA with another officer on the same call. But interestingly, I heard on the radio just yesterday that since now MJ is legal in AK (in a different context than it was previously) the K9 units may have to replace all their drug dogs. It may be worthwhile to have them take a look at her again.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
i think Howards example was a good example of the importance of details

what was great about it is that :
1. he could look back/review and find the missing piece and fix the problem
2. realize it wasn't the dog"s fault at all

i have definitely been guilty of jumping on the dog for something i was doing wrong
 

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Rick said;
"i have definitely been guilty of jumping on the dog for something i was doing wrong".

I doubt anyone here can deny doing that at some time or other and scent work is one of those things where you really have to trust your dog. That can only be done if all the details fit the big picture and not one without the other.
 

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Details are the most important with an end goal in mind. Forgive if my points are a repeat, some responses were far too long for my attention span.

Human example: it's fine to have big picture goal of Disney land but without deciding to take a car vs plane vs what hotel vs when to go vs etc, the end goal is of little significance.

Dog example: fetch a beer from fridge. Without the dog learning a behavior chain that establishes how to carry an item in mouth, what a beer is, how to open and close the fridge, what the fridge is, where it is, and a word to put it all together, the human will stay thirsty.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
nice clear examples of both Nick, and i'm not just saying that because it supports my viewpoint :)

so i also hope we can get some examples from those who feel the big picture is more important than the details. it seems logical and is easy to say but i think it's harder to cite training examples to compare thee two.

so far i see that side as presenting different ways of defining the big picture rather than a comparison of both being used in training scenarios.

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somewhat off topic but i thought i'd throw this out :

it is OFTEN said that you have to be clear with the dog.
could a lack of "clarity" result from trying to clump too many details into one session ?
 

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I believe they have to match one another to be successful at ANY level.

Even if it's only a well mannered but not necessarily competition level behaviors for a pet the details have to, at the very least fit that goal.

I believe your details can go well beyond the goal but to have less details with a higher goal is a failure at any level.

My goal my whole life was/is first and foremost to have a 100% reliable "truck dog".

Even with my competition dogs it was more important TO ME that the dog was reliable in any situation. Anywhere in public, at home, on the trial field and in the trial ring.

High scores were always a nice bonus but being reliable in AKC obedience, herding, Schutzhund, whatever training venue was always my primary goal.
 
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