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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay all, I need everyone's help, especially experienced breeders. I am writing a practice grant proposal for my neuroethology class based on the research we've done in my research lab on the intrauterine position effect. Basically, in the mouse, the uterus has two horns (similar but not identical to the dog) and the pups fit in like peas in a pod. If a pup is in between two males, it is denoted 2M. If between two females, it is 2F. If between one of each, it is 1MF. There are numerous behavioral effects, such as female 2M pups tend to more socially aggressive towards conspecifics (both male and female), have extended estrus cycles (2F females tend to have 4-5 day estrus cycles, 2M females are more like 5-8 days), be less likely to mate, and have a longer anal/genital distance (which makes it harder to sex the pups at birth). This is because they get an extra prenatal "dose" of testosterone by their adjacent brothers.

The focus of my practice grant proposal is to identify if something similiar happens in dogs. In other words, many familiar with dog behavior and physiology have heard of some females getting more socially aggressive after ovariohysterectomy (though not all females do this). I'd like to "see" (keeping in mind I am not going to physically do this research) if this is due to the intrauterine position effect that has already been characterized in numerous rodent species.

As dogs and cats have a somewhat similar set up to rodents, has anyone noticed that females from all male or male dominated litters are more socially aggressive?

Remember, this isn't a "real" project, but I think it is very very interesting and no formal research has been conducted on dogs, just rodents, to see if it works the same way. AH HA! I smell a PhD/DVM project! :wink:
 

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I just couldn't help myself Maren. I am pulling your leg but it kept me chuckling while I fixed dinner. Actually, I don't think I have kept records that would give me the insight you are looking for. Thanks :D
 

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Don Turnipseed said:
I just couldn't help myself Maren. I am pulling your leg but it kept me chuckling while I fixed dinner. Actually, I don't think I have kept records that would give me the insight you are looking for. Thanks :D
Okay, I laughed my butt off on that one. HAH. Well done, Don. You are my new hero, that was great.

Maren, he gotcha.

 

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Don Turnipseed said:
Maren's googling trying to find that study Woody. LOL
It actually hits home for me because my job is to come up with new tech gadgets for my company to make...there's always one smarta$$ in the back of the room saying "Already been done." And they are usually right. From now on, I will call that person "Turnipseed." :lol:
 

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Woody Taylor said:
Don Turnipseed said:
Maren's googling trying to find that study Woody. LOL
It actually hits home for me because my job is to come up with new tech gadgets for my company to make...there's always one smarta$$ in the back of the room saying "Already been done." And they are usually right. From now on, I will call that person "Turnipseed." :lol:
"Simpsons did it."

(South Park lament)
 

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I hope there is a bit of a sense of humor here becuase I notice that Maren described how the 2F's act, the 2M's act....but no mention was made of the 1MF's. I wonder how they act? :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
RAWR! :evil: Do NOT mess with the grad student at the end of the semester!!! We are stressed out enough as it is. See if I give you all free vet advice in a couple years! Who's gonna be pwned then? 8) :lol: :lol:

Actually, I didn't even bother googling it (or PubMed or Medline searching it, for that matter) cause I had already been doing it all afternoon. :roll: :roll:

Anyone actually wanna weigh in on this one for real though? Please?
 

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Jessie was the ONLY female in her litter. She's only 6 months old (or will be on the 6th), but I can try to help by answering any of your questions. She's snoring right now from her crate. I don't think I've ever heard her snore before. :lol: :lol:

Forgive my newbiness, but what exactly are you asking when you ask about social aggression?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanks for at least trying to answer, Kristen. :) Basically, especially for those who have had numerous litters, *in general* do females born in otherwise all male litters tend to be more socially aggressive (i.e.-trends towards being more territorial and suspicious of strangers and strange dogs, more dominant or pushy over known dogs and perhaps people, possibly harder in temperament, etc) than females born in all or mostly female litters?
 

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I don't recollect any mostly all male litters but several all female litters. I will look through my records and see. I I happen to keep a female put of a predominately male litter I will know how she acted. The problem is, most of my females are brought back to me for stud service because the owners can't find males that are not afraid of them. I am thinking of one female in particular that had a very short breeding life before I quit trying to breed her and she was rough, but I think there were females in that litter also. It will take a while to look through them all but in a day or so I will let you know.
 

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socially aggressive (i.e.-trends towards being more territorial and suspicious of strangers and strange dogs, more dominant or pushy over known dogs and perhaps people, possibly harder in temperament, etc
Um, well, this pretty much describes Jessie to a tee. :lol: If she doesn't know you, you can forget trying to pet her because if you try, she's going to tell you off. After she's had a warm-up-to-you period, she's okay, but she isn't a run-up-to-everyone-wanting-attention puppy. She runs to the fence and barks her fool head off at the neighbors, passing dogs, and Jak. She sounds like a full-grown male when she barks - her bark is deeper and more scary than Jak's. :oops: :lol: I've also caught her trying to hump Adam's leg. :lol: On the other hand, though, she will submit very easily without a fight. I can't remember how many males/females were in the litter before Jessie's, but I can ask next time I go to training if you want me to. They are 9 or 10 months old now I think.
 

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I got two female puppies from different litters this summer. The one from the female dominated litter(one male puppy) is the really forward and more dominant with other dogs but very willing to please people. The one from the predominantly male litter is a submissive pee-er and more submissive with other dogs but is really darn stubborn. Some of this is just the inherited temerment of the dogs. I think it would be interesting to compare a predominantly male and a predominantly female litter from the same parents.
 

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not messing with you, I thought there was an official study on that.Have read it somewhere, but is probably an European study.

What I recall was it like you discribe with the mice. More dominant, male-like females.

Could it be possible it has something to do with the father? Father is the one who is responsible for the gender (like humans), some males do inherit lots more males than females (with different females-female is resposible for how many pups are born).
If there are more males in the litter, statistically you would have more 2 M´s in the litter.

It is said that if the male is very dominant by nature/genetics, it is likely he gives many males. So very dominant- high testostonelevel- gives many males?

for example: our late Rocky, is father of different litters, very dominant dog by nature. His offspring is about 70/80 % males, in some litters there was no female at all.
 

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Just because a dog is predisposed to being more socially aggressive,doesnt mean that you will see any or all of this behavior.The environment the pup is raised in will greatly affect the behaviors as will the influence of the dam.I dont see how you can get an accurate conclusion from this unless you either study hundreds of litters or control the environment from birth.You would also have to study females from predominantly all female litters.It is interesting though.
 

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I would offer up my bitch as an example as she is from a litter of 6 males and 2 females - the other female from the litter died at about 2 weeks old. I personally feel that her temperament has more to do with genetics though - as I knew both the sire and dam very well and both had an edge to them - the sire tolerated people as did the dam although the dam was less forgiving. The breeder kept one of the males from this litter and he is the same, temperament wise, as my bitch.

This breeder has bred the dam of my bitch four times - only once to my bitch's sire (he died shortly after the pups were whelped :( ). The male pups outnumbered the females in two of the other litters (7-2, 5-4,) In one litter there was 6-6. These three litters were all sired by another male that he owns, who is what I would consider a very social dog. I would say that only one of the females out of the three other breedings mentioned would be considered socially aggressive - that female is out of the 5-4.
 
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