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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Whether your training for sport, PPD or PSD I think it is safe to say that we all have certain expectations we want to meet before we trial, utilize the dog for personal protection or feel confident enough (in the dog and ourselves) to work the streets. I personally have seen dogs and handlers working in different venues and was left wondering - what the heck are they thinking ?...bringing that dog to a trial, thinking that dog will actually protect them or working that dog on the streets.

There were at least 3 dogs at the SchH regionals that I attended, that I personally would have never entered. It was not like they had an "off day", as I had seen the dogs at several club level trials and they (or their scores which were either at or below 70's) were not any better. In my opinion those dogs/handlers just wasted the judges, other competitors, and spectators time. I attended an ASR Seminar in VA, and the comments I have on film from trainers and "civilians" while my PSD and I were working on the field just amazed me. "Does that dog really work the streets and have "real bites"? "I have never seen a PSD that would out like that or listen to the first command". Then one of the trainers began commenting about how they were asked to train a PSD (that was already working the streets) because it "did not have a recall". Believe me my PSD was not "the sh*t" that day by any means - I've seen a whole lot better out of him and many other PSD's working the streets. Sadly, I've seen a whole lot worse as well. Which leaves me wondering is it "rose color glasses" that some handlers have on? Actually thinking that they (dog and handler) are good when in actuality they are barely marginal. Kinda like some people actually think they can sing - when in reality they can't (See tryouts for American Idol). Or are enough people (spectators and competitors) not able to see a really good working/sport dog in action, just the slugs, so their expectations and opinions (standards) are lower? Where are the TD's, Kennel Masters, "friends" etc that should be telling it like it is and requiring/demanding more from the team? I'm one of those people that will tell you my opinion not what you wanta hear and respect those who will do the same for me.

Do certain judges/trainers/evaluators really think that they are doing teams a "favor" by giving passing scores to handlers/dogs that obviously don't deserve them? I personally think they are doing a disservice to the them AND the other handlers/dogs out there that are training at and above the minimum requirements.

Sorry, just had to rant.....
 

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Whether your training for sport, PPD or PSD I think it is safe to say that we all have certain expectations we want to meet before we trial, utilize the dog for personal protection or feel confident enough (in the dog and ourselves) to work the streets. I personally have seen dogs and handlers working in different venues and was left wondering - what the heck are they thinking ?...bringing that dog to a trial, thinking that dog will actually protect them or working that dog on the streets.

There were at least 3 dogs at the SchH regionals that I attended, that I personally would have never entered. It was not like they had an "off day", as I had seen the dogs at several club level trials and they (or their scores which were either at or below 70's) were not any better. In my opinion those dogs/handlers just wasted the judges, other competitors, and spectators time. I attended an ASR Seminar in VA, and the comments I have on film from trainers and "civilians" while my PSD and I were working on the field just amazed me. "Does that dog really work the streets and have "real bites"? "I have never seen a PSD that would out like that or listen to the first command".
this is exactly what i was talking about in the other thread lacey. i commend you on striving for a higher level than a lot of people expected of you. i've heard the same thing at PSD trials (not about my dog). specifically, there was a dog (trained by Gregg Tawney) who did very well in his bitework routine. i heard another handler tell the handler of that dog, "i wanna see your dog after he's had about 10 street bites". basically implying that his control would go down the tubes.



Then one of the trainers began commenting about how they were asked to train a PSD (that was already working the streets) because it "did not have a recall". Believe me my PSD was not "the sh*t" that day by any means - I've seen a whole lot better out of him and many other PSD's working the streets. Sadly, I've seen a whole lot worse as well. Which leaves me wondering is it "rose color glasses" that some handlers have on? Actually thinking that they (dog and handler) are good when in actuality they are barely marginal. Kinda like some people actually think they can sing - when in reality they can't (See tryouts for American Idol). Or are enough people (spectators and competitors) not able to see a really good working/sport dog in action, just the slugs, so their expectations and opinions (standards) are lower? Where are the TD's, Kennel Masters, "friends" etc that should be telling it like it is and requiring/demanding more from the team? I'm one of those people that will tell you my opinion not what you wanta hear and respect those who will do the same for me.

Do certain judges/trainers/evaluators really think that they are doing teams a "favor" by giving passing scores to handlers/dogs that obviously don't deserve them? I personally think they are doing a disservice to the them AND the other handlers/dogs out there that are training at and above the minimum requirements.

Sorry, just had to rant.....
as far as what motivates those people, i would think the number one thing is just impatience. they probably put some work in the with the dog and while they weren't ready for that specific trial, they still want to "compete". be on that field. feeling the nervous rush that everyone talks about.
 

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i sympathize with your post lacey. one thing i think may or may not be going on with people who do are not ready is that they plan in advance expecting to get to such and such a level and for whatever reason they do not. But they have already paid, planned, etc. and go in expecting a miracle. Personally, i would rather not embarrass myself and won't even begin to trial for a I until i'm already ready to get a II, but that’s just me. Of course, my plan isn't fool proof because my dog could do something new and interesting on the trial field. But I’m going to avoid this as much as possible and, like you, don't understand why others don't do the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I've heard the same thing at PSD trials (not about my dog). specifically, there was a dog (trained by Gregg Tawney) who did very well in his bitework routine. i heard another handler tell the handler of that dog, "i wanna see your dog after he's had about 10 street bites". basically implying that his control would go down the tubes.
I've heard that alot too Tim....knowing it's bullsh*t. Control is lost because the handler permits it and fails to train/demand nothing less from the dog - cut and dry. Nothin pisses me off more then to be a spectator at a sport trial and hear people say "that dog would make a good police dog" only because the dog won't out or is out of control.

Good for you Sam....glad to hear you have higher expectations for XD. You'll probably get your 1 before Coda and me at the rate we are going :(
 

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I've heard that alot too Tim....knowing it's bullsh*t. Control is lost because the handler permits it and fails to train/demand nothing less from the dog - cut and dry. Nothin pisses me off more then to be a spectator at a sport trial and hear people say "that dog would make a good police dog" only because the dog won't out or is out of control.
haha. where have i heard that before? needless to say, i agree with you 100%...
 

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Yeah the dog loses control after 10 street bites because many stop training their dog after the dogs 2nd bite .... "hey lookie he bites people now, I don't have to do anything else" ;)
 

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This is why i am doin many mock trials before braxton actually trials. and as far as the street dogs thing goes i dont think you can just go oh this dogs has a schI and narcotics yeah it can work the streets. i am working a psd now that will only bite forearms (wich i hate dogs that are forearm biters) and was stick shy and he needs alot of speed put into him and alot of environmental pressure added. Your psd shouldn't come off the bite if i kick a trash can at him or throw a hose on him. I think the only work you should have to do is maitinance training or if an issue comes along fix it with a psd. not take one that has been working the streets for a year and go man we have all this work to do. but hey there are alot of dogs out there like this. and at least this handle understands this and isnt gungho on getting his dog a bite. it wasnt his decision to pick this dog but the department did and it was their first dog. and they now know. the dog is doin good now after 7 months of training. but still isnt all the way done.
And by the way Lace Jarko is just a bad mamajama.
 

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This is why i am doin many mock trials before braxton actually trials. and as far as the street dogs thing goes i dont think you can just go oh this dogs has a schI and narcotics yeah it can work the streets. i am working a psd now that will only bite forearms (wich i hate dogs that are forearm biters) and was stick shy and he needs alot of speed put into him and alot of environmental pressure added. Your psd shouldn't come off the bite if i kick a trash can at him or throw a hose on him. I think the only work you should have to do is maitinance training or if an issue comes along fix it with a psd. not take one that has been working the streets for a year and go man we have all this work to do. but hey there are alot of dogs out there like this. and at least this handle understands this and isnt gungho on getting his dog a bite. it wasnt his decision to pick this dog but the department did and it was their first dog. and they now know. the dog is doin good now after 7 months of training. but still isnt all the way done.
And by the way Lace Jarko is just a bad mamajama.
i agree with a lot of what you said. not all of it, but most. as far as a PSD only needing maintenance training, that would be nice, but it's not realistic. at least not where i work. four weeks is all we get for a basic handlers course. four weeks is not enough time for: obedience, bite work (different bite scenarios, handler protection, environmental pressure, targeting, etc), area searches, building searches, tracking/trailing, and article searches. the certification test we have to pass at the end of that four weeks is VERY basic. basically it's: obedience (on and off leash), area search, building search, apprehension on a fleeing suspect with a verbal out, handler protection with a verbal out, and a call-off (no contact recall or down). that's it. no article searches. no tracking/trailing. no weird bite scenarios. so yes, it would be nice if the dog did all of those things competently right out of basic handler school and the only thing required is maintenance, but it doesn't happen that way out here.

some of those bite work issues can be headed off in dog selection (environmental stability, nerves, etc), but some of it is just exposure. my dog was an IPO 1 and had probably never bitten a leg when i got him. we didn't spend a lot of time on leg bites in the basic handler school and he will still almost always prefer an upper body bite, but his first street bite was a leg bite. go figure....
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I can definitely understand a dog/handler have an "off day" and does something "that he/she has never done before or very rarely does" - no doubt we've all been there before but when a dog does not even have a clue what heel means....refuses to jump the hurdle and A frame in training, let alone almost every trial and has never understood what a bark and hold is (talking sport here) then IMHO don't enter the dog (SchH 3) in a regional championship.......There is nothin wrong with having fun and socializing on a training field or at a club trial - obviously those handlers must have had alotta fun socializing because it was very evident that effective/correct training was not being conducted - even to my rookie (sport) eyes.

The performance was sooooo sad that even the other competitors that were in the bleachers did not laugh - they did look pretty disgusted though. I actually stopped filming the protection phase of one of the dogs....it was that repulsive.
 

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<<<as far as a PSD only needing maintenance training, that would be nice, but it's not realistic. at least not where i work. four weeks is all we get for a basic handlers course.>>>

Tim, I completely agree, it would be great, but it's not realistic. We have a full 15 week course, staff trainers and handlers are still required 16 hours per month for maintenance training. One of my concerns with smaller departments has always been the follow up. They get fairly decent training, but often times they don't have the people with knowledge to lean on when they return to their own department. Our department has several smaller departments that rely on us for training and certification. It works for them, it's free training, doesn't bother us cause we are training anyway.

DFrost
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Jarko was Steve......WAS......I have not worked him in awhile now that he is retired. The last time we worked him (after ASR went cold) - the control was not there at all - lack of proficiency training. No doubt we could get it back but I've opted to let him enjoy his retirement :)

Wow Tim 4 weeks???? We had a little over 4 months and that was definitely not long enough. We were required to do 16 hours of proficiency training each week (4- protection, 4- tracking/trailing and 4-narcs) which of course we were not paid for. I was lucky enough to have two crazy but awesome civilian decoys/trainers that had very good imaginations (for scenario's) also....to train with.
 

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i agree with a lot of what you said. not all of it, but most. as far as a PSD only needing maintenance training, that would be nice, but it's not realistic. at least not where i work. four weeks is all we get for a basic handlers course. four weeks is not enough time for: obedience, bite work (different bite scenarios, handler protection, environmental pressure, targeting, etc), area searches, building searches, tracking/trailing, and article searches. the certification test we have to pass at the end of that four weeks is VERY basic. basically it's: obedience (on and off leash), area search, building search, apprehension on a fleeing suspect with a verbal out, handler protection with a verbal out, and a call-off (no contact recall or down). that's it. no article searches. no tracking/trailing. no weird bite scenarios. so yes, it would be nice if the dog did all of those things competently right out of basic handler school and the only thing required is maintenance, but it doesn't happen that way out here.

some of those bite work issues can be headed off in dog selection (environmental stability, nerves, etc), but some of it is just exposure. my dog was an IPO 1 and had probably never bitten a leg when i got him. we didn't spend a lot of time on leg bites in the basic handler school and he will still almost always prefer an upper body bite, but his first street bite was a leg bite. go figure....
oh i understand the time thing but i think trainers should train the dog for this stuff instead of selling a trained psd dog who needs work still. but hey us trainers gotta make money some how. lol i just wouldnt trust a dog without proper training.
 

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Jarko was Steve......WAS......I have not worked him in awhile now that he is retired. The last time we worked him (after ASR went cold) - the control was not there at all - lack of proficiency training. No doubt we could get it back but I've opted to let him enjoy his retirement :)

Better than most i still wouldnt want to mess with him in a dark or light for that matter alley. lol
 

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Awwwwwwww...... I love Jarko. He still wont give me that damn Kong, but he will come sit in my lap with it :D He is a VERY level headed dog, I would say that in itself makes him great :D
 

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Once again, Sch rears it's ugly head. I take new people to Sch trials so they can see that it is rather silly, and they hear the scores and the ALWAYS PRONOUNCED bitework AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Sorry.

I really would like to see video of the bad performances posted......NOT to make fun of, but as good instruction as to how or why things went wrong.

If I had video of last june with Buko, I would post it, not only for comedic value, but also to show people what I could of done differently as a handler to get control of the dog better. As I was feeling like absolute crap, I am sure there was a whole bunch of stuff to point out, a lot of it real basic and common errors.

Unfortunately, no one wanted to video my comedic efforts, and the learning opportunity is lost.

Showing the bad stuff is way more important than the good stuff.

I would have loved to have video of Buko in September. There were some really beautiful handler errors occuring. Buko also had some pretty nice moments here and there.



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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I would show the video of the dog/handler that performed poorly if it was me and my dog but seeing how it is someone elses performance...I won't. Now if this breeder brags on their website about this dog going to the regionals....I might have a change of heart :)
 

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I should probably wait to post on this one till after the Arizona trial on the 14th! :)

But, I think what happens is that people get used to a routine on their field or at their training and the dog does pretty well considering the same decoys, scenarios, locations, etc. Then the handler goes to the trial field with new decoys that may be putting more pressure on the dog and on an unfamiliar field and the handler sees a different dog then the one at training. The dog that is usually clean in training suddenly becomes sticky on the outs and there is a loss of control.

Their training does not engage the dog at the trial level and they are not prepared. Unfortunately, they don't figure this out until their dog is running amuck and biting everyone and everything, and they are too embarrassed or proud to cut the trial short and call it a day .....
 

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I should probably wait to post on this one till after the Arizona trial on the 14th! :)

But, I think what happens is that people get used to a routine on their field or at their training and the dog does pretty well considering the same decoys, scenarios, locations, etc. Then the handler goes to the trial field with new decoys that may be putting more pressure on the dog and on an unfamiliar field and the handler sees a different dog then the one at training. The dog that is usually clean in training suddenly becomes sticky on the outs and there is a loss of control.

Their training does not engage the dog at the trial level and they are not prepared. Unfortunately, they don't figure this out until their dog is running amuck and biting everyone and everything, and they are too embarrassed or proud to cut the trial short and call it a day .....

I can understand that. I would think that would be pretty commen, especially to new handlers. (Like myself...hopefully I can learn from others mistakes :D) But the dog(s) that Lacey is talking about...that is not the problem. These dogs have alot of training issues, and they are not just at trial time.
 
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