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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
IMO Not only are escape training and "regular" ecollar training NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE...they are perhaps sequential: teach the command with food, then escape training, and then the regular stuff. I'll defer to the expert(s?) for continued experience with that one. In any case...it's one more tool.

In any event, a dog learns through operant conditioning...so...NO, it's not only one thing. Some stuff will work better for each individual dog.

Regarding what a handler looses...if anything, which I don't think so...my view...now...is that the handler looses NOTHING THAT CAN'T BE RECOVERED EASILY!!!
 

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Andres Martin said:
In any event, a dog learns through operant conditioning...so...NO, it's not only one thing. Some stuff will work better for each individual dog.
This confused me. Are you saying escape training is operant conditioning or something else? I interpret operant conditioning this way though this Wikipedia article seems to be odd about how it speaks to dog training. Escape training always sounded like "free operant avoidance learning" to me, i.e., I was just minding my own business and suddenly something very weird/bad happened to me....
 

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Woody Taylor said:
I still have problems thinking through how the dog doesn't figure out that think in your hand/that movement of your arm/that flick of your finger isn't associated with whatever is happening to it, whether it's a hard or mild stim.
Unless you make a big show of pressing the button, it's just the movement of a finger. If people have done this sometimes dogs figure out that the TX (transmitter) causes their discomfort. Then there are a few tricks, such as having someone else hold the TX behind their back and stim the dog at the appropriate moment, putting it into a pocket, etc.

Any method of training that applies pressure and then relieves it when the dog complies is "escape training." This applies to Koehler and Koehler-like methods as well. You can't hide the fact that a leash correction is coming from the handler but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Woody Taylor said:
this has always been my reservation about using escape training for pet/sport dogs...that corrections need to be viewed as coming from the owner, so they recognize you as being in control of them regardless.
I'm not so sure that this is really the case, that dogs need to realize that corrections come from the owner so that they can be controlled. I've come across quite a few dogs that won't allow this. I've known a few that were put to sleep because they were just too tough to be dominated in this conventional way.

Dominance in the wild dog world is only very rarely established by out and out combat. If it was I think they'd have become extinct long ago. The slightest injury can become infected and can result in the death of the dog. Dogs mostly establish dominance through the force of their personality and mock combat, not the real thing. When I first joined this forum I was asked to post an article I'd written called "establishing dominance." It can be found at

http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=394

It sounds like more voodoo until you try it. It allows a human to show the dog that he's dominant without any conflict, without any confusion and without any danger.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
I think escape training falls well within OC. It is negative reinforcement.

Discomfort STOPS, when a behavior is performed, thus INCREASING the LIKELYHOOD of the behavior.

I still have problems thinking through how the dog doesn't figure out that think in your hand/that movement of your arm/that flick of your finger isn't associated with whatever is happening to it, whether it's a hard or mild stim.
I have something to add here...
A dog CUES on a complex amount of stimuli. For the dog to EXCLUDE stimuli the handler wants EXCLUDED, in the performance of a behavior, the handler must give the dog CUE SIGNIFICANCE, REPETITION, TESTING and PROOFING.

Let's say that everytime I command my dog to sit, I simultaneously raise my right hand, palm towards me...and INADVERTENTLY shift my head to look at my motion of the hand...

The dog complies. He sits.

It should not surprise me if the dog sits when I move my head to look at my hand, without giving a command (verbal or hand signal). Dogs pick up on incredible nuance...INCREDIBLE NUANCE.

So, I must test the dog moving my head, and if he sits without the proper command, use a NRM...and repeat. Etc.

SO...use the transmitter as a test.
 

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Andres Martin said:
I think escape training falls well within OC. It is negative reinforcement.

Discomfort STOPS, when a behavior is performed, thus INCREASING the LIKELYHOOD of the behavior........
Yes, it certainly seems to fall within the rules of O.C., as negative reinforcement.

Something Good can happen, or Positive Reinforcement;
Something Good can stop, or Negative Punishment;
Something Bad can happen, or Positive Punishment;
Something Bad can stop, or Negative Reinforcement.
 

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So I had an interesting concern about escape training for recall that was PM'd to me...

What's the danger of escape training relative to PSD/MWD situations where the dog is sent out to search/apprehend/etc? The dog should be "clear-headed and confident" away from its handler. If escape training convinces the dog that 1. the best place to be is next to its handler and 2. weird stuff can happen when I'm away from the handler...are there cases where the dog's capabilities get undermined by lack of confidence for any number of reasons related to the training it's underwent?
 

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Woody Taylor said:
If escape training convinces the dog that 1. the best place to be is next to its handler
If this occurs then either stim levels that are too high have been used or the recall has been worked too much.

Woody Taylor said:
2. weird stuff can happen when I'm away from the handler...are there cases where the dog's capabilities get undermined by lack of confidence for any number of reasons related to the training it's underwent?
The way to prevent this is, as soon as you see that the dog is getting clingy (I call this Velcro dog) you teach the sit or another behavior that has the dog getting stimmed while he's right next to the handler. This breaks the "superstition" that the handler is a safe spot.
 
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