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Discussion Starter #1
ok...an impulse purchase, a lady was in a bind and had a 1 year old male GSD from good working lines that I purchased. she had done no prey work at all..actually the opposite she had stopped the dog from chasing cattle by HIGH stim on ecollar...

anyway, the collar came with the dog and since I also have horses and cattle, I was training the dog with the ecollar basic OB on the lowest setting...literally the lowest setting. he was doing great...sit/stay/here, then one day he just decided that he didn't want to sit...either next to me or remotely, I thought the ecollar maybe wasn't working so tested on my arm...recharged it etc...I went back and redirected him manually into a sit over and over again..he still fights it...increased the stim from 1 to 3...still no compliance...I have heard bad stories of people ruining dogs with ecollars and don't want to be that person..do I need to go up higher on the stim level?...I have hypothesized that maybe he was use to getting really stimmed high, so that when I first started training him he would comply with anything that had a stim...even low setting...he still recalls strong everytime on low setting...just is stubborn to sit.

thanks in advance for any help
 

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For me, it sounds like you are relying on the ecollar to much.
 

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How about rewarding for compliance, instead of punishing/using an aversive for getting it wrong? Does he know his commands without the e-collar?
 

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What is the dog's knowledge to the e collar? Has he been taught properly with the e collar? Put the e collar way and build a relationship with this dog. teach through motivation not with an e collar, and that's coming from someone that uses e collars on all dogs. Once you come along with your relationship and he is working WITH you then go to someone that can train you on how to use the e collar the correct way, not just to punish and correct
 

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Discussion Starter #5
thanks for the replies, yes he does know the commands off the collar, and I believed that he was collar literate in that he knew to do the commands to turn off the stim( I had worked through the lou castle method I saw on his website), I had been using the nick for commands the last couple weeks and he would recall and sit instantly...then just one day he stopped sitting...I have had him for about 2 months and he is excited when I put the collar on him...so I don't fear he is in aversion to it, especially at the level I am using.

I have been using food the last week since he has not been responding to the ecollar, but his sit is slowwwwwwwwww, and I have to walk up close to his nose to get him to sit sometimes....

just seems weird that he was progressing so well with the ecollar, then just hit a wall.
 

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Sounds like he is associating the position/command with the stim--no matter how low to you, is unpleasant to him. Agree with ditch the collar. Negative reinforcement/escape training is a tricky thing. Have had dogs trained with this that actually went to aggressive behaviors when given the command, anticipating the stim. Stop now while you can salvage it. Are you familiar with marker/clicker training? I might rely more on capturing the sit instead of body pressure (walk up to his nose). I would for sure start completely over--no command. Lure to the position, mark/reward. I'd also when he was offering the position on his own, use a new word/cue/command. Each dog can be different and any dog from year 1-3 has stages that they go through. For me the most insecure or pressure sensitive age with herding breeds is between age 1 and 3.

T
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Sounds like he is associating the position/command with the stim--no matter how low to you, is unpleasant to him. Agree with ditch the collar. Negative reinforcement/escape training is a tricky thing. Have had dogs trained with this that actually went to aggressive behaviors when given the command, anticipating the stim. Stop now while you can salvage it. Are you familiar with marker/clicker training? I might rely more on capturing the sit instead of body pressure (walk up to his nose). I would for sure start completely over--no command. Lure to the position, mark/reward. I'd also when he was offering the position on his own, use a new word/cue/command. Each dog can be different and any dog from year 1-3 has stages that they go through. For me the most insecure or pressure sensitive age with herding breeds is between age 1 and 3.

T
this makes perfect sense..why he is hesitant to sit even for food reward...I know about clicker training...but not the intricacies of it...I assume you get the dog to associate food/reward with the clicker by clicking everytime he gets the reward...then intermitten..then not at all???, I will research it a little...any youtubes that you know do it correctly?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I also wonder what I did to screw it up...I am guessing my timing or something must have confused him...or maybe he never really understood how to turn off the ecollar
 

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The click means that the dog did something right. Just like yes or good. Then it's followed with something positive. Food or praise. All the click or yes or good does is mark exactly where the correct behavior was. Just like "no " and a correction or with holding of a reward. It's a marker. A faster sit can be accomplished by a few different principles and several methods. To come up with a course of action...Has the dog ever sat quickly.? Remember the dog just may not be fast or may have a health issue. If it has sat quickly what we're the circumstances? Answer that and you can get lots of good advice from the folks that already posted.

I agree with Larry about not using the ecollar yet. I would leave it on the dog while doing food stuff and trying to make the dog forget whatever negative associations it has in case you choose to use it later.. Just don't turn the collar on but keep the remote with you.





this makes perfect sense..why he is hesitant to sit even for food reward...I know about clicker training...but not the intricacies of it...I assume you get the dog to associate food/reward with the clicker by clicking everytime he gets the reward...then intermitten..then not at all???, I will research it a little...any youtubes that you know do it correctly?
 

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E-Collar rule number 1 :

The E-Collar is a training AID and not a training FORM. Use it to aid you in training but not as a means to train your dog. If you train a dog with the E-Collar as a training form you will be left standing as soon as the E-Collar is not there to enforce the exercise. The person before you most likely used it as a form of training out non desired behaviour instead of using it as an aid to help make the dog understand that his behaviour was not desired. Now you get to pick up the pieces...

Get rid of the E-Collar and focus on hands on training with reward and correction only.
 

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Well said Alice!
Although I will agree that the e-collar can be a good tool in the right hands, I have no use for them.

Train with reward, and correction if needed, then LEARN how to use the e-collar correctly from someone you know to be reliable with one.
 

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What brand and model is the e-collar ? Inconsistent stimulation will make a bad situation worse.
 

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go back to the basics. keep the ecollar on but not in use, desensitize him from the ecollar. reward him for the collar good things come from the collar ie walks play food etc..
 

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for me I would actually remove the collar at this point because it is such a negative with him. Go back to your basic foundation training and start over. Then when you have a nice foundation laid and getting good responses but the collar back on but not turned on and continue. Expect some regression because dogs aren't stupid. Build back up again. And even when you get to the step where you turn the collar back on, you don't use it for every little thing. Castle's stuff is a nice go-by but remember that not all dogs are cut out to work with that kind of aid. Your dog may be one of them. And reading about something or seeing a video and trying to impliment what you see into a conscious act is hard because you don't have the right timing or understanding of how to properly use the tool in relationship to this particular dog.
 

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just curious as to what you mean by this?
My impression is when a dog starts off responding to something and then stops so dramatically that something is extremely negative about the process. My usual way of doing things is to remove or stop whatever it was that I was doing and scale back to the basics or beginnings (before I started adding or changing things) and then develope a baseline and then start adding variables back. For me, having a collar on the dog at this point serves no purpose and would remove it so that a baseline can be built and a relationship/bond be forged without the collar connection.
 

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My impression is when a dog starts off responding to something and then stops so dramatically that something is extremely negative about the process. My usual way of doing things is to remove or stop whatever it was that I was doing and scale back to the basics or beginnings (before I started adding or changing things) and then develope a baseline and then start adding variables back. For me, having a collar on the dog at this point serves no purpose and would remove it so that a baseline can be built and a relationship/bond be forged without the collar connection.
gotcha, I just didnt see anywhere where Daniel implied that the dog had negative associations with the collar, although I do agree with most of your thinking process on going forward with the training.

Daniel, have the hips been xrayed on this dog? just curious.



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Its nothing to do with negative in my eyes. He used to do it, now doesn't want to do it. He's figured it out and is pretty much telling his owner to go F himself and then some.. This is what happens when people without knowledge slip an E-collar on a dog thinking it will fix everything.
 

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Its nothing to do with negative in my eyes. He used to do it, now doesn't want to do it. He's figured it out and is pretty much telling his owner to go F himself and then some.. This is what happens when people without knowledge slip an E-collar on a dog thinking it will fix everything.
no argument there but sometimes what is written isn't exactly correct. Personal preception colors all and what the OP thinks is the problem (or what is actually occuring) isn't that at all. How many times has someone said the dog isn't gripping or is dropping stuff only to find out the dog has a mouth problem or infected tooth?
 
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