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Dog-Aggression and Police K-9's

1447 Views 11 Replies 8 Participants Last post by  Lou Castle, 
Patrick Murray
I mentioned in another thread an encounter I had with a FHP K-9 handler and his dog-aggressive K-9. And I had a friend of mine use do decoy for the Orlando K-9 unit. He told me the majority of those dogs were dog-aggressive. So I'd like to ask the K-9 handlers here, are dog-aggressive K-9's pretty typical? If so, why? Thanks.
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Selena van Leeuwen
I don´t know how common it is in the US. If I look to my own bred dogs they are all pretty dogagressive, and not very social to people either.

2 reasons for that..being very dominant dogs they don´t allow much around them...the whole world is theirs and everything else must disapear. Because we don´t bother, this behavior is more devoloped then by someone who wants them more or less social and let the dog behave in a manner what isn´t in his character.
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Patrick Murray said:
I mentioned in another thread an encounter I had with a FHP K-9 handler and his dog-aggressive K-9. And I had a friend of mine use do decoy for the Orlando K-9 unit. He told me the majority of those dogs were dog-aggressive. So I'd like to ask the K-9 handlers here, are dog-aggressive K-9's pretty typical? If so, why? Thanks.
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Patrick, I don't handle K-9's but growing up in the military (army born and wed) I can tell you that the military working dogs I've come in contact with are not dog aggressive. These days mostly malinois are used and more than once I had my car searched while my own dogs were in it and the K-9's never had an issue (but my pups did LOL). There was one day that two mal's were left in the back of teh k-9 unit while it was parked across from my housing building and they were barking their heads off at every person and dog who passed, but there could have 800 reasons for that (lack of exercise, new situation, just got back from training and were pumped up, who knows?).

Also, the military working dogs can be brought into the schools without incident (so not people aggressive, either). When I worked at Ft. Campbell High School we had narcotics GSD patrolling the lockers on a regular basis and he never had a problem with the students being in the hallways (though his handler obviously never permitted the students to pet him). I've also seen the dogs do demonstations at least a dozen times (their handlers will come and do decoy demo's every time they're asked lol -- LOVE to show off their dogs) and none of them ever had a problem with the audience (including the Dutch shepherd who took first at the Military Police trials right after I saw her demo about 2 1/2 years ago).

Our German security also had working dogs (mostly GSD's) and none of them ever showed aggression toward one of my dogs or a person in the time I was near them (ever since 9/11). We worked with a K-9 handler at our SchH club who brought his Polizei k-9 and he interacted well with the other dogs and handlers.

So that's just my limited experience on the topic...
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I had a client who was the K-9 trainer for a local county w/10 dogs, and also a k-9 handler himself. His dog was not dog-aggressive, and neither were the dept. dogs I met. A few were dominant and slightly possessive of their "stuff," but I didn't have a problem with them and Caleb, and I even brought Widget around a few dogs w/out incident. They seemed more likely to end a fight than stop one :wink: . I think part of it might be the handlers encouraging this perception. I know too many moronic, Napoleonic cops with too much time on their hands to not think this plays a role. :roll: The cops I know who actually have things to do make fun of these guys worse than I do, and say that these same dogs behave differently w/different handlers. So, I would guess that while some may be, probably not too many more than in the general population. Just a guess, though, based on the 12 or so K9s I've interacted with.
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Selena van Leeuwen said:
I don´t know how common it is in the US. If I look to my own bred dogs they are all pretty dogagressive, and not very social to people either.

2 reasons for that..being very dominant dogs they don´t allow much around them...the whole world is theirs and everything else must disapear. Because we don´t bother, this behavior is more devoloped then by someone who wants them more or less social and let the dog behave in a manner what isn´t in his character.
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Shouldn't unnecessary aggression and other issues be addressed fist and foremost before any form of training can begin?
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Tim Martens
Selena van Leeuwen said:
I don´t know how common it is in the US. If I look to my own bred dogs they are all pretty dogagressive, and not very social to people either.

2 reasons for that..being very dominant dogs they don´t allow much around them...the whole world is theirs and everything else must disapear. Because we don´t bother, this behavior is more devoloped then by someone who wants them more or less social and let the dog behave in a manner what isn´t in his character.
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i think that to generalize dog aggression and people aggression as mutually inclusive, would be an error. how many dogs have you seen that would eat every other dog in sight, yet be VERY gentle with people? i have seen MANY. the reverse holds just as true. my trainer believes that generally dogs that are people aggressive were left with their litter too long and that dog aggressive dogs were taken away from the litter too soon...

my first PSD was dog aggressive and after him i said i would NEVER deal with that again. just too much work and too many other dogs out there that can do the work without those issues (and most of the time the issues are far more than just wanting to fight other dogs, such as excessive marking).

it is definately a characteristic that i personally look down on...
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:twisted: Here it is seriously discouraged. We make a point of “sorting out” dogs (and handlers) with issues, first and foremost. We cant afford a loose cannon, I agree with Tim, its all about the job, and the right kind of tool – plenty of dogs with good characteristics are available – not to say that they are all trainable, -where every dog just gets messaged into a mould, because it can be done. This phenomenon in my “humble” opinion is mostly observed with new handlers, in newly formed K9 units – the saying goes: the older the wiser and ones bitten twice shy. Breaking up fighting dogs is no game, and dogs and handlers get hurt…always, rendering optimum performance a negative. :D
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Patrick Murray said:
So I'd like to ask the K-9 handlers here, are dog-aggressive K-9's pretty typical? If so, why? Thanks.
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I'm a "has-been" but I'll say that many PSD's are dog aggressive. It's because the handlers allow it. Most of them don't know how to fix it and most of them don't see the need. It's a matter of training, but then, what isn't?

Jose Alberto Reanto said:
Shouldn't unnecessary aggression and other issues be addressed fist and foremost before any form of training can begin?
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You'd think so!

Tim Martens said:
my trainer believes that generally dogs that are people aggressive were left with their litter too long and that dog aggressive dogs were taken away from the litter too soon...
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While this can be a factor, I think that it's a bit too absolute and a bit too simplistic. It ignores what the environment can do.

It's not all that difficult to overcome. My protocol developed for crittering works well to stop it. http://loucastle.com/critter.htm
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Selena van Leeuwen
Jose Alberto Reanto said:
Selena van Leeuwen said:
I don´t know how common it is in the US. If I look to my own bred dogs they are all pretty dogagressive, and not very social to people either.

2 reasons for that..being very dominant dogs they don´t allow much around them...the whole world is theirs and everything else must disapear. Because we don´t bother, this behavior is more devoloped then by someone who wants them more or less social and let the dog behave in a manner what isn´t in his character.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't unnecessary aggression and other issues be addressed fist and foremost before any form of training can begin?
Click to expand...

Why should I? I don´t have problems with it..
I don´t care if my dogs couldn´t cuddle with everyone, they are not pets. The only thing I care about they´re submissve to me.
I walk all my dogs separtly, and I tell them to leave it, they leave it(other dogs, people).
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I have the privilege of raising my dogs from pups -- and prefer it that way -- and unnecessary aggression is one issue well-addressed early on. It's made part of their foundation where they will stand on when they mature. Their exposures have always been working in various places or terrains under any condition, along with other dogs, people and other animals, as it happens, where it happens.

Having to address these issues later on when they mature often results to a test-of-wills, with results not that solid and may break at the most inconvenient and unexpected time and place. Likewise training for a specific vocation may be bogged down by these issues, which could have been well prevented if they were addressed early.

My opinion...
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I dont think dog aggression is bad in a PSD, as long as the dog doesnt act on it. My GSD hates other male dogs, he was fine as a pup but this has developed as he entered maturity. I addressed the problem, he doesnt wanna eat every dog in sight, he can walk past another male dog and be in a room with a male dog, but he can't interact with another male dog. Sniffing for more than 3 seconds turns into aggression, but thru training he has become tollerent.

I think if a handler can control their dog and prevent them from ACTING on their aggression then it shouldn't be a problem. If the dog is kill kill kill all the time then I WOULD see a problem. I'm no cop ofcourse, but I've been working with em lately n got an understanding of what they do with their dogs. Unfortunately ive come to realize that not many K9 handlers have control over their dogs.... its a training issue more than a dog issue!
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The issue of the aggression of a police K-9 towards other dogs is one of those things that comes up once in a while. When long as the dog is under command he should, of course, tolerate other dogs. The problem is that many handlers think that's sufficient. I don't think that it is. Most of these dogs, if they encounter another dog during a search at some distance from the handler, will be in a fight in no time. That's bad for the search and dangerous for both the dog and the handler. The search gets put on hold while the handler tries to break up the dog fight. Besides the danger inherent in this activity, the team is in uncleared territory. If the suspect is close by he may decide that this is the best time to escape, or assault the handler.

I think it's important that PSD's be trained to ignore or at least tolerate other dogs in all circumstances, not just when the dog is under command. Anything less puts the K-9, the handler and the back-up team at risk.
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