[Nick Hrycaj]

I cannot remember where but I once saw an advertisement for a class teaching using a laser light to direct a dog through a building search. I have seen dogs go crazy for laser pointers as a play thing but never seen them used as a useful tool in real life. Anyone use this type of method, been to that type of training?

 

[Joby Becker]

I cannot remember where but I once saw an advertisement for a class teaching using a laser light to direct a dog through a building search. I have seen dogs go crazy for laser pointers as a play thing but never seen them used as a useful tool in real life. Anyone use this type of method, been to that type of training?

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f18/area-building-searches-w-laser-pointer-18815/



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[Nick Hrycaj]

Right on, thanks. Where'd all those contributors go? Haz has a point after all that numbers are down and feedback has suffered

 

[Nicole Stark]

All but three of them are still members. One of the guys made a good point about trying to get people to understand the need or purpose in what they (cops) do by arguing with people who don't understand or do the job.

I got some if my best information from some of the guys that posted on that thread. I spoke to a number of them about their participation on the forum after it dwindled away. Most stopped for the reason noted above. Or in other words people just talking out of their asses with no experience or actual understanding about what they were yammering on about. They got tired of it and lost interest in the forum.

Course a lot of the better stuff was posted nearly five years ago. People's priorities and needs change. And I guess too, that maybe Facebook has taken over the world. I really couldn't say for sure on that. I don't have a Facebook account as I refuse to be sucked into allowing that type of useless shit into my life. The WDF offers enough diversity for my needs, though I'd sure like to see it liven up.

Keep posting. It might serve as a much needed impetus to resurface some of our officers and military members that used to post more frequently.

 

[Matthew Grubb]

Neat idea but I don't think I would teach it. More and more officers are using lasers on their pistols and rifles now... too much potential for confusion.

 

[Haz Othman]

All but three of them are still members. One of the guys made a good point about trying to get people to understand the need or purpose in what they (cops) do by arguing with people who don't understand or do the job.

I got some if my best information from some of the guys that posted on that thread. I spoke to a number of them about their participation on the forum after it dwindled away. Most stopped for the reason noted above. Or in other words people just talking out of their asses with no experience or actual understanding about what they were yammering on about. They got tired of it and lost interest in the forum.

Course a lot of the better stuff was posted nearly five years ago. People's priorities and needs change. And I guess too, that maybe Facebook has taken over the world. I really couldn't say for sure on that. I don't have a Facebook account as I refuse to be sucked into allowing that type of useless shit into my life. The WDF offers enough diversity for my needs, though I'd sure like to see it liven up.

Keep posting. It might serve as a much needed impetus to resurface some of our officers and military members that used to post more frequently.

Nicole everyone claims that..the reality is theres no one here that pisses them off/ amuses them enough to keep them coming back.

 

[Nicole Stark]

Well I didn't want to point out the obvious but now that you have I guess I have to say +1 or whatever lame ass trendy shit grown adults find themselves drawn to do these days.

Haz why not become that special someone? You know become the asshole everyone loves to hate. Or if it suits you better develop yourself to become more interesting or amusing. For example, start by changing your signature tag and replace dust with aliens.

 

[Haz Othman]

Sorry dont have it in me , takes a special someone with lots of anger and time.

 

[Rob Maltese]

Neat idea but I don't think I would teach it. More and more officers are using lasers on their pistols and rifles now... too much potential for confusion.

I think if more people understood what the K9 was doing and why using a laser would be an issue then guys at least at my department eould switch to lights rather then lasers.

 

[Matthew Grubb]

I think if more people understood what the K9 was doing and why using a laser would be an issue then guys at least at my department eould switch to lights rather then lasers.

Asking the department to change so that the dog can perform better(questionably) building searches will be the brick wall that you will hit. Officer safety vs. efficiency.

The thing you get into with building search.... there is what you train vs. what you do on the street. At times the two are very much at odds with one another.

 

[Nick Hrycaj]

Matt I fully agree that what we are presented on the street is sometimes different from training but I try to always follow the adage of practicing like I play. Nobody uses weapon mounted lasers in my county but I wouldn't deploy without having run tens or hundreds of practice times with the dog guiding laser.

One of the guys on the old post called the laser training a cop out for better training of methodical building search. I disagree with that from a real world standpoint that not every area or bldg is the same so there will always be deployments that present new factors to the dog vs what the trainer or handler thought of in traing.

I saw some brad smith skidds stuff that advocates the long line so maybe that's a good bridge to keep the dog in a specific area longer to encourage a re-search or obedience to hand signals to check certain areas.

Outside of anthropomorphism, I feel dogs do really read between the lines sometimes and see what we want, therefore making a hand signal/ flashlight guide combo a successful hint even without prior training.

Who has info on a dog's vision ability? They really color blind? Depth perception? Are they just cueing off motion with light or laser?...

 

[Sarah Platts]

According to my Steven Lindsey book and internet browsing, dogs are not colorblind. Early tests in the 20th century concluded that dogs may have the basic ability to discriminate color but merely reacted to the brightness factor.
Later research is showing that dogs are dichromatic and can discern colors in the blue-yellow spectrum but not the red-green one. In those cases, I’m guessing that the dogs are using “brightness” as a guide which laser light can certainly provide even though lasers are either red or green in color.
The eyes, set toward the front of the head, give a sharp and wide field of binocular vision which overlap of 40-60 degrees between the right and left eyes giving good depth perception which can vary based on the breed eye position. Since dogs lack full binocular vision their best depth perception is narrowed to what is directly in front of them. However depth perception can still be achieved by turning the head so that objects are moving at different speeds with regard to one another and so get an idea of relative distances and the depth between them. Other things that help is foreground and background contrasts, contour lines, size and scales of associated objects, linear, overlapping, and vertical location within the field of vision.
What I found most interesting is that dogs can be nearsighted or farsighted (just as in humans). One study found that 63% of the rotties and 53% of the GSDs tested were myopic or nearsighted.

 

[Nick Hrycaj]

Sarah, very informative! Sorry you had to do the leg work. I got carried away thinking out loud in my post, coulda looked that stuff up myself on the Internet.

 

[Sarah Platts]

Sarah, very informative! Sorry you had to do the leg work. I got carried away thinking out loud in my post, coulda looked that stuff up myself on the Internet.

No worries, I learned something while I was researching this. Never realized how many dogs have a problem with farsightedness. Maybe that's why so many are driven by the chase. They "see" the motion better than they can see the actual item. Could be why so many small prey animals freeze when they think they are in danger. "If I don't move, they can't see me...." Appearently there is some truth to this.

 

[Guy Williams]

We occasionally get the military using our training venues and they used lasers to move the dogs around on a search. They started by shining it on a ball and then gradually moved the ball further away so the dog used the laser to locate the ball. Then they moved it on to people in search. I initially liked the idea and we started practicing as I could see some use for it. The firearms officers pointed out that the red lasers they have on their weapons may cause some confusion. We switched to a green laser. Then we lost interest in the whole thing. It has come back into my mind recently as I was thinking about laser guided attack dogs. I'm not sure how much use there might be for it but i love things that use gadgets. Any one ever heard or used such a method or am I still sleep deprived?

 

[Howard Knauf]

Asking the department to change so that the dog can perform better(questionably) building searches will be the brick wall that you will hit. Officer safety vs. efficiency.

The thing you get into with building search.... there is what you train vs. what you do on the street. At times the two are very much at odds with one another.

Just train the exercise and do it. Ask for forgiveness later. It's just another tool eh? Did a building search the other night in an industrial area. I've taught my dog to target search with a flashlight blip. I used it in that building on two doors. The dog searched the rest of the building fine. It's called a K9 team for a reason. Right?

 

[Nicole Stark]

Guy, I'm glad you posted this because I have been wondering about Nick's original question since he posted it. The original dialogue on a similar topic is nearly 4 years old and I wondered what, if any, new developments have surfaced regarding using this approach and if so, has it been found to be effective. Or are there more downsides to it than appreciable applications of such.

Also, what differences, if any, did you note when changing from red to green?

 

[Matthew Grubb]

We occasionally get the military using our training venues and they used lasers to move the dogs around on a search. They started by shining it on a ball and then gradually moved the ball further away so the dog used the laser to locate the ball. Then they moved it on to people in search. I initially liked the idea and we started practicing as I could see some use for it. The firearms officers pointed out that the red lasers they have on their weapons may cause some confusion. We switched to a green laser. Then we lost interest in the whole thing. It has come back into my mind recently as I was thinking about laser guided attack dogs. I'm not sure how much use there might be for it but i love things that use gadgets. Any one ever heard or used such a method or am I still sleep deprived?

Never heard of it but the cool thing about dog training is that you can do whatever floats your boat and to heck with everyone else! lol

I can think of a ton of "tactical" applications where choosing a "target" for the dog via laser would be a major plus.

 

[Matthew Grubb]

Just train the exercise and do it. Ask for forgiveness later. It's just another tool eh? Did a building search the other night in an industrial area. I've taught my dog to target search with a flashlight blip. I used it in that building on two doors. The dog searched the rest of the building fine. It's called a K9 team for a reason. Right?

We are big on directed search.. but do so with hand signals.

Someone mentioned long lines... we don't use them. We spend a lot of time on patterning our building searches. We will also spend major amounts of time working the down and having a search team move all over and around the dog.

 

[Howard Knauf]

We are big on directed search.. but do so with hand signals.

Someone mentioned long lines... we don't use them. We spend a lot of time on patterning our building searches. We will also spend major amounts of time working the down and having a search team move all over and around the dog.

Funny you should mention these two things. My dog will work with hand signals but in a dark building it's difficult sometimes. Impossible if the dog can't see you.

I attended a tactical K9 school a few years ago and we used the long line in a SWAT stack. It was interesting. Last night I broke out the long line in a building for the first time with this particular dog. We create a stack and searched the building on lead in increments. The dog was downed after each section was searched the we crept up to him to continue the search. It was my boy's first time doing this on line and if I had to grade him I'd give him a "C". Not too bad for his first time. You could see the confusion at first but at the end he did a bit better. I used the light to make sure he hit every door in the search if he missed one. We don't have a dedicated SWAT dog and depend on out patrol dogs so to assist the entry team now and then. It's good that the dog has seen the exercise before actually doing it for real.