I am not sure if this was in response to my post?
mike, i think he's only partially on to something. to me social aggression requires no "outward" stimulus. this is just the dog wanting to be dominant among people
If it was, I thought my first post clearly states that social aggression needs no trigger stimulus and it is the only form of aggression that needs no trigger stimulus. And a dominant dog does not equal a socially aggressive dog. They can be tied into the same package, but they do not have to be.
The problem that some people have when they do have a socially aggressive dog and the dog keeps challenging them is they themselves have allowed the door to open and allowed the dog to think a change in social order is possible. If the dog does not see the "door" open these challenges will not take place.
these terms are all subject to interpretation. the important thing is that your training group are all on the same page with these definitions...
Tim, I think it needs to go beyond the training group. Some of these terms have been labeled and talked about by scientists for years. It is only in the K9 world that we come up with many different meanings of a set scientific term. I am not sure why that is, to me it is a bit baffling? If you talk to a biologist say in Yellowstone Park about Bear behavior and then you talk to a biologist in Glacier National park about bear behavior, they will use the same terms to describe the same thing. Same goes for Marine Biologists. So, why is it that the terms that are used in the K-9 world are so open to interpretation? I want this perfectly clear I am not trying to be difficult here, just asking a question that baffles me. A comment reply to drive discussions is it is just semantics, or they are open to interpretation. This seems to be the answer to everything every time discussions on drives come up. Well, you use it like this, but we use it like that? I just don't get it?
Biologists say to label something a drive it has to have a biological meaning to the survival of the species. It also has to have a beginning and and end goal, i.e. social aggression in a pack of wild dogs. Lets use this as an example; It starts when another strong male comes into contact with the leader of said pack of dogs, this is the starting point, their will be a fight unless one of them completely yields and submits to the other. The end goal is to drive one of the males away from the pack so the strongest will have breeding rights within that pack.
The biological significance of the social aggression in this specific example is the strongest get to breed assuring the future of the species.
I think discussions on drives take on a great deal of meaning. Getting to know and understand the different terms and drives and how to use them in training is super critical to a persons ability to being a dog trainer or a very good dog trainer.
Mike, I think this is where these discussion always get sticky, fight drive. Let me ask you what you think. What biological significance would their be to a dog just wanting to start fights for the sake of fighting with other dogs? (and I am not talking about the twisted breeding practices that went on in the dog fighting world. That is not natural, that is something that was man made) What is the end goal? To have a 20 and 0 record?
But, this is the way many people define fight drive. The dogs desire to actively fight or engage someone for the fun of it. The forwardness of prey, with the seriousness of defense? Sounds confusing? Sounds like a combination of both drives and not a single "fight drive".
I personally don't believe their is a "fight drive" that exists on it's own as a separate drive. I think "fight drive" would be better termed maybe as "fight package"? I think it is a combination of what nature has given the dog in the form of drives and temperament. The fuller a dogs package is the stronger the dog. Say the dog is socially aggressive, he has strong prey drive combined with strong active defense drive and throw a little dominance in there and maybe some frustration aggression and you have a very nice well rounded dog. A very nice "fight package" if you will? If you have a dog that has strong prey drive, but he is a weak defensive dog and that is about it, you don't have a well rounded dog and therefore you are missing some components to this total package.
Just my opinions.