[Jim Nash]

Gonna try to answer various questions all in one post.

Kita is 3.5 years old, 4 in Nov.

This was a sudden injury, vs something building up over time, she's never been lame in the rear before. Kita is a spinner when she's excited, tight spins to the right. I believe what happened is that while we were outside and all the dogs were running around, she got excited about a neighbor, spun, and the foot didn't turn with the body, it's the back right leg that is injured.

It's a partial tear, not a complete rupture. There is no drawer movement or discernible instability, this is from 2 vets, who both examined her awake and then sedated. The diagnosis is based on the swelling and pain in the joint, reaction to various types of flexing, limping, etc.

The specialist I took Kita to is considered one of the top ones in the area, and this type of injury is something he deals with on a regular basis. He's done various working dogs in addition to pets, my biggest concern when I asked him about that is if he really knows what working/performance dogs do to their bodies, because he started telling me about all the different jobs his clients do, and kind of lumped Sch and Police work in with agility and a westminster dog (for those not in the US, think Crufts, a huge dog show).

There is a 60% chance after surgery that the other leg will go. This is one of the things I found confusing. I was told she'd be 100% after surgery, which I'm skeptical of. But I was also told there is a 60% chance of the other cruciate going. I asked why and he said it's because of overuse of the non-injured leg, compensating for the injured leg. The other cruciate tends to go 9-18 months after surgery. But if the surgical leg is 100% after a 3-4 month recovery time, then why would they still be compensating for that leg to the point of blowing out the other cruciate 9-18 months later? Unless it's because surgery changes the angle of the leg (it does) and now the dog has 2 mismatched legs, even if the mismatch is minor enough we can't really see it.

I'm not sure about percentages but we had a good number tear the other leg too after surgery . We use the University of Minnesota Vet Hospital and another very good vet that works on animals for our local zoo .

They have never done surgery for partial tears , just full tears . Bingo had a partial . The treatment was several weeks of rest , some physical therapy then back to work .

I worked him on the street no limitations , but in training since he was about 6-7 years old at the time , I just laid off of agility training or stuff he had to jump in scenerios . He already had that down well anyways .

I'll add that most of the handlers who had surgery on their dogs went right back to using the dog in training as they did before . Those were the dogs we saw the 2nd leg tearing most of the time . I competed as well as worked my dog on the street but street work was more important then trophies so I gave up that to help increase his working time on the street .

I've seen some good improvements from surgery but 100% , never .

 

[Michelle Kutelis]

We do quite a few TTAs, and a few TPLOs at my work. I have seen dogs 100% sound afterwards, but they are NOT high drive working dogs.

I've known two schutzhund dogs that had blown ACLs. First had a TPLO done down in Orange County, it was a mess. Dog reacted to the plate, tore his e-collar off, and tore open his incision and chewed on his apparatus. Repeat surgery, managed to heal, but dog was worse on the leg after surgery. (He was maybe 97% before surgery, and 80% after)

Second one was a Tightrope, I assisted, and his meniscus was torn to crap also. The vet actually told the owner to not do the ACL, he suspected most of the pain was coming from the torn meniscus. Owner just wanted everything "fixed". The dog did great right after surgery, then started going downhill with various strange symptoms. He was Euthanized for cancer before he was healed.

Both of these were SchH3 dogs.

 

[Jim Nash]

I think the mistake many Vets make is they gage their successes off the typical dog they perform the surgery on that will go back to a life that is not nearly as active or physically demanding as the dogs we are talking about .

 

[Martine Loots]

I think a lot depends on the cause of the injury. Is it pure traumatic or anatomical (the way the dog is built).
If the dog is anatomically correct and athletic, then I wouldn't do surgery for a partial tear but have it treated by an osteo/physio and take my time for the recovery (I took almost a year).
Fils had no problems with the knee again or with the other knee (he was 3 when it happened and is 8 yrs old now and still running like a youngster).

I hope Kita will be ok, Kadi. I know how much it sucks to get such an injury on a young promising dog.

 

[Sara Waters]

I think a lot depends on the cause of the injury. Is it pure traumatic or anatomical (the way the dog is built).
If the dog is anatomically correct and athletic, then I wouldn't do surgery for a partial tear but have it treated by an osteo/physio and take my time for the recovery (I took almost a year).
Fils had no problems with the knee again or with the other knee (he was 3 when it happened and is 8 yrs old now and still running like a youngster).

I hope Kita will be ok, Kadi. I know how much it sucks to get such an injury on a young promising dog.

Yes I think your words are good. My ACD did her first cruciate at 2 1/2 and it was nearly 5 years later of pretty full on work before she did her second. My sister and her busines partner were surgeons that did all the police dogs and greyhounds etc and although there is never a guarantee, they had a lot of success getting dogs back into work or on the track. So there are succes stories.

 

[David Frost]

I've had three ACL tears repaired by surgery. It was on single purpose drug dogs, all Labs. The surgery and rehab was done at UT- Knoxville Veterinarian School. It was still pricey but they did give a "working dog discount". All three dogs returned to full duty. Seems it was a couple of months before they could work, but they did return to full duty.

DFrost

 

[Kadi Thingvall]

Quick update on Kita. After seeing the specialist, doing a lot of research, etc I've decided to try the non-surgical approach for now. We can always try surgery later, but can't undo a surgery once it's done. I also found a paper published in the Journal for the AVMA that indicates the success rates for surgery are much lower than the specialist indicated, only 10.9% of dogs are 100% normal after surgery, and 34% see a significant improvement. Didn't say what happened to the other 54.1% but it must have been less than significant improvement to worse off afterwards. The paper is 6 years old, so there may have been some improvements in the procedure, after care, and percentages since then, but it's a big jump from 10.9% to 98%.

Anyway, we are at the 4.5 week mark and she's walking on the leg about 95% of the time, not bearing full weight but definitely improving slowly but surely. Standing is about 50/50, when she wants to trot, which I immediately discourage, she still picks the leg up and only takes a few steps with it. I bought an above ground pool so we can start some daily swimming to start getting some muscle tone back, and am also researching braces so there will be less risk of a "Malinois Moment" while doing rehab tearing the scar tissue that is building up. If I can find a good brace, I think that may help make a major difference in the rehab, she will be able to do more to build the muscles back up, with less risk of re-injury.

 

[Lori Gallo]

Good luck. Keep us posted....hope she just resolves uneventfully... and without any Malinois moments!

 

[Lisa Brazeau]

Water therapy. Water therapy. Water therapy.

Kadi, if you could design a good brace and have it fabd, you would make a ton of $$$.

 

[FRANKIE COWEN]

kadi if your looking for braces check orthopets.com phone (303) 953-2545 i talked to them few years back when my boxer blew his acl, they make a mold of your dog leg for the brace . and u can talk to them email or phone with questions and procedures. the mold can be done by ur vet or you can get the casting kit and do the mold templet your self

 

[FRANKIE COWEN]

i was qouted i think 550 for the stiffle brace and that incluided to follow up adjustments or modifactions to the brace for best fit and function

 

[John Dickinson]

I have a male rotty that has had TPLO surgery done on both knees. The first knee was done at 2 years old. He had just finished getting his BH and I threw the ball for him and it was that quick. Because he was in training for Schutzhund, I went with the TPLO and it was done by Dr. Bradley in Manassas, VA. Dr. Bradley is an active competitor in agility with golden retriever's and understands high drive working dogs. He told us that because of the angles of his knee's, I believe he said 28 degree's, it was pretty much a guarantee he would blow the other one. We went through the rehab process with treadmill and swimming. I forget how many weeks/months it took. Then we thought we were done and the other knee went. So back to Dr. Bradley. I now have the bionic $7K dog. He is now just over 5 years old and is as active as ever. He is my daughter's dog actually and after all the surgery and rehab, she decided not to continue with Schutzhund with him but he is more than capable of it. He does the jump and wall for fun chasing the ball.

 

[Chris Jones II]

There is a good brace on the market already and it works. I know the dog and she is fine with 2 acl full tears. Oh, yeah that is the company in Frankie's post. I hear they are very good.

Kadi, I'm sure you have found this in your researching but remember not to go back to normal activity too fast. That is the biggest mistake people make i think. Even if he looks like he's back to normal, you will want to keep limiting his activity for several weeks more and then begin to go back to normal activity in a gradual manner. A BC with a torn ligament is a pain as I'm sure a malinois will be. #-o

 

[Melissa Blazak]

Could you try stem cell treatment?

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-dept/small-animal-dept/musculoskeletal-miracles.aspx

I know this lady. Her standard poodle Josephine is now 12 and still doing agility. It worked great for her.

 

[Donna DeYoung]

Had a dog come up lame after rigorous protection session/run-in w/ helper. He was very lame next day and in pain that PM, so right to vet next day. Got the talk on these injuries.We put dog on rest, inflammatories, pain meds. I was told to ck w/ specialist (orthopedic surgeon, experienced w/ working dogs/agility dogs) if dog did not improve in 5 days. My vet explained it would be a 3K surgery, requiring plates on larger dogs. They had good rehab facility as well I was told. Good prognosis if surgery done on tear; poor prognosis if no surgery and it was a complete tear.

Luckily the dog appeared to only have had a sprain. There was no swelling when vet examined. Did x rays and could not see anything major. They had suspected sprain or (at worst) partial tear. Dog was walking normal within 2 days. I kept him on rest for several weeks, then started slowly back to work.

Good to see this post. I agree, you need an excellent surgeon and good rehab facilities and even then, no guarantees ...

D

 

[Jonathan Hoffnagle]

Trip to vca today, hoping its lyme, again, but looking like acl. Been an expensive year. Keep ya posted.

 

[Anna Kasho]

Missed this the first time it was posted... I have a mal who also tore his acl. Partial tear, no drawer, etc. I saw the moment it happened, was exercising them and the competitive idiot rushed and did a jump very badly, in front of my bitch, just so he could do it first. He was carrying the leg immediately as he landed. I chose to treat conservatively... It took a long time to get back to normal, almost a year, but he is at 100% today. The hardest part was keeping him quiet, lots of rest, crating, making him lay down and be still. Also extreme limitation on exercise, nothing but trips to pee/poop and then short leashed walks for many weeks, very gradually built up. I was told that if I overexercise him to the point of limping, that repeats the damage again, and I'll need to start over - better to build very gradualy so that he never limps. I don't know how true that is, but that is what I tried to do... He runs and jumps fine now, no problems with his other leg either.

 

[ameliamontgomery63]

Mine had her TPLO surgery a few years back. She got it from playing a lot and jumping everywhere. When I saw her limping, I phoned my vet and was scheduled for a check-up. And she was advised that she needs to undergo surgery since she tore her ACL. The surgery was quick, and the recovery took months but it was worth it since she's back in good shape and was able to play a lot again.