[Kadi Thingvall]

I'm curious what the experiences are from people on the forum with cruciate injuries. Surgery, non-surgery, what sort of recovery did the dog have, was it able to go back to work, any future injuries, etc.

One of my dogs has a cruciate injury and after a month of crate rest I'm at the point where I'm trying to decide if I should continue with the crate rest, or consider TPLO surgery. The specialist says surgery will bring the dog back to 100%, my very limited experience says "probably not", but I'm wondering what other's experiences have shown.

 

[Sandra King]

I know a Jack Russel whose got stomped into the ground by a stallion.

The Veterinary Clinic wanted to have him undergo Surgery but since it was so expensive the owner said "no" and took him to her own Vet.
Two months later the dog started walking again. He was on medication and "bedrest" for the most part. The horse hit some nerves and they had to recover. He's walking a little funny, like a puppy, but overall he's doing really fine for what happened to him.

 

[Alan Fielding]

Hello Kadi- one of my Bouviers had the TLPO surgery when she was about 6 years old.Had the surgery-recovery time about 4 months --but NO she was not the same afterwords-- she was extremely athletic and could easily jump a six foot fence prior to the injury but had trouble jumping into a pick-up truck after the surgery. She could still run well but jumping was out . She had a great life and died at 15 years old.It is my understanding that there are 2 types of cruciate injuries-- ones that occur over time and catastrophic ones that tear completely at the time of the injury-- the former (as my dog had) the prognosis is not for 100% recovery --the latter has a better prognosis.By the time my dog was diagnosed properly ("no drawer"-ever) the joint was already arthritic and thus the less then 100% recovery. By the way , while it is extremely common for the other cruciate to also tear, this did not happen in my case.

 

[Harry Keely]

Hey Kadi, got to experience this twice within the last ten years or so. both had surgeries for about 3.5k a piece, both were kinda long recoveries, both never made a full recovery, In all seriousness I will never pay for another cruciate surgery for as long as I live, jmo. One was a female she passed naturally about a year or so ago, the other is male that is mobile on his own but thats it. He collects dust, eats, shits and still is a idiot of a dog and wants to try or attempt to think hes a bad ass still and kill everyone he sees, although we keep him locked up or crated when theres company. Because they probally could just push him over now and I would be into it again for more money than hes worth at this point:lol:O:-D. If you have a dog that needs it my advice is if you cant get it done for the price of 1000 or so don't do it unless you want a long time pet. I know of others as well and all stories are never a full recovery back to the field or streets. Your vet is full of crap, I would love to talk to someone that has a 100% dog again after this surgery.

 

[Sara Waters]

My ACD had bilateral TPLOS, one at 2 1/2 and one at 6. She recovered completely and went on to do very well in agility till she was nearly 9 when I retired her. She is now 11 and still doing really well and doesnt appear to be troubled by either of them although if she does to much she can get occassionally cramping which is easily helped my massage.

The key is finding a good surgeon - my sister did my dog and was known as a very good surgeon, a thoughtful conservative rehab and lots of swimming as a major part of their sports conditioning program.

I am a believer in surgery, particularly if the injury is a complete tear and is unlikely to stabalise naturally. A cruciate injury is actually a painful one if not dealt with. Sometimes a partial tear will stabailise non surgically, especially in small dogs. I have a friend with a sheltie who got her dog back to agility after managing it conservatively.

 

[Brian McQuain]

I had one go through TPLO surgery, and he was never the same. He could walk and trot, not much more.

 

[Maren Bell Jones]

If you have a dog that needs it my advice is if you cant get it done for the price of 1000 or so don't do it unless you want a long time pet. I know of others as well and all stories are never a full recovery back to the field or streets. Your vet is full of crap, I would love to talk to someone that has a 100% dog again after this surgery.

Spending less than $1000 is not going to happen, even where I live, if it's done properly with a lateral suture and athrotomy (opening the knee joint to look for meniscal tears). If you're not going to spend the money to do it right, don't do it at all. Especially for working/performance dogs. My vet school has one of the highest caseloads of orthopaedic surgeries (especially knee surgeries) in the country. I was insane and took both the regular rotation and an additional three week elective and assisted with a ton of TightRopes and some TTAs and TPLOs. One of my mentors is the inventor of the TightRope surgery. I also went to the best rehab vet school for a month and saw and helped with dozens of dogs down there as well post stifle surgery. Research has pretty consistently shown than 90% of dogs have a good or better outcome whether you do a lateral suture, TPLO, TTA, or TightRope. I have also seen dogs in that 10% range that did not do well (infections, post op fractures, etc). It's surgery on a biological system and can fail.

Rehab is absolutely not optional if you want an optimum outcome. They would never put a human, particularly a human athlete, through knee surgery without following up with rehab.

 

[Sara Waters]

Well sounds like I was lucky. Here is a photo 8 months post TPLO number 2 of my ACD at age 7 1/2 competing in agility running for the finish. She still thundered over the AFrame, leaping clear over the apex. She did everything with more enthusiasm than style.

I retired her the following year for no other reason than she was rising 9 I didnt want to push her with 2 TPLO surgeries under her belt, although she was pretty disgusted - she loved agility and I still give her the occasional run at home.

I think part of the key is the surgeon - find one with a high rate of success, second is in the rehab and the third is probably the dog and a bit of luck.

 

[Sara Waters]

Research has pretty consistently shown than 90% of dogs have a good or better outcome whether you do a lateral suture, TPLO, TTA, or TightRope. I have also seen dogs in that 10% range that did not do well (infections, post op fractures, etc). It's surgery on a biological system and can fail.

Rehab is absolutely not optional if you want an optimum outcome. They would never put a human, particularly a human athlete, through knee surgery without following up with rehab.

I would tend to agree, I know a number of dogs that have got back into agility after knee surgery with no problems.

As to rehab, it is important, however I did mine myself. I was pretty conservative particularly while the bone was healing. I didnt do anything special other than increasing her walks when I felt it was appropriate and I never rushed during this phase, but after the bone had healed I bought a bouyancy vest and did tons of swimming.

I was lucky to live at the time near a very calm area of beach with huge rock pools, perfect. She is the sort of dog that would swim all day if you threw something for her. To start off I was careful about building things up and not allowing her to run in and out of the water and the bouyancy vest had handles which was great for control. She was very swim fit and super fit before the surgery so it didnt take long for her to bounce back and was soon back to swimming marathons.

After TPLO no. 1 she didnt limp at all and recovery was fast. TPLO no. 2 was slower with some toe tipping for some weeks after surgery.

 

[Martine Loots]

What is a "cruciate injury"? I suppose it's what we call "kruisband letsel" and it means an injury to the "crossed" ligaments of the knee?

As I already said in the other thread, my malinois Fils recovered completely without surgery and his knee never bothered him again during his sports career. I was very careful with the rehab and took my time to let him fully recover. This pic was taken after his recovery.

However his ligaments weren't completely ripped of. They only were partially torn (training accident) and the meniscus was ok. If they are completely ripped off, I guess surgery is the only option. But I don't believe in surgery for a complete recovery to do a physically exhausting sport like Ring again. SCH would be ok I guess since the jumping is easy there.

 

[Sara Waters]

However his ligaments weren't completely ripped of. They only were partially torn (training accident) and the meniscus was ok. If they are completely ripped off, I guess surgery is the only option. But I don't believe in surgery for a complete recovery to do a physically exhausting sport like Ring again. SCH would be ok I guess since the jumping is easy there.

Beautiful photo and dog.

I think it depends on the dog and the outcome of the surgery - I have known a Border collie with cruciate surgery that was quite capable of working and backing sheep (running along their backs) all day in the yards, pretty exhausting heavy duty work. Agility can be pretty full on too with all the twisting and turning and contact gear like the see saw. The dogs can run a height of 650 mm over 20 or more jumps at speed and some dogs seem to do just fine.

I dont know how ring compares as we dont have it over here where I live.

 

[Tommy O'Hanlon]

It all demands on the vet, i would seek out a greyhound vet that has a reputation for cruciate repair, i had a greyhound do a cruciate and after repair and rehab he went on to win very high class races, now retired to stud, IMO going to vet colleges is a waste of time for this type of injury as most of the bods in there do not live in the real world
Tommy

 

[Sara Waters]

It all demands on the vet, i would seek out a greyhound vet that has a reputation for cruciate repair, i had a greyhound do a cruciate and after repair and rehab he went on to win very high class races, now retired to stud, IMO going to vet colleges is a waste of time for this type of injury as most of the bods in there do not live in the real world
Tommy

Yes finding the right surgeon is incredibly important. One with runs on the board where it counts. Surgeons that deal with police dogs, racing dogs and other performance dogs on a regular basis.

 

[Martine Loots]

Yes finding the right surgeon is incredibly important. One with runs on the board where it counts. Surgeons that deal with police dogs, racing dogs and other performance dogs on a regular basis.

I second that.

 

[Summer Voth]

my little female pitty had had 2 knee surgeries. She had a TPLO on one side and a TTA on the other-- we did the TTA to try and save a few hundred dollars-- if I had it to do again--I would have done the TPLO--

The TPLO leg is much more stable, has more natural range of motion, and looks like a normal leg.
she also was returned to about 85% of normal function-- we don't jump for frisbees anymore(that's what blew out the knee) but we hike, walk, run, jump up
in car etc. with no problems.

We followed the rehab instructions to the letter...we were in western pa at the time and had no access to a
pool for rehab-- we just did it the old fashioned way-- I also eventually taught her to slowly walk backward up stairs - and to balance with her front feet on a medicine ball for isolation of the back legs.

she is 10 now and has not had any issues with either knee-- after the second knee was done-- I also ran her through a treatment of Adequan, which I also think helped a lot.

 

[Lori Gallo]

My 11 yr old gsd had bilateral TPLO's about 5 yrs ago. The vet was highly recommended and experienced. Total cost at the end of it was close to 5k apiece. She was never the same. She rejected one of the plates and that had to be removed, ended up with a very weird gait, (goose-step) and a severely contracted gracilis muscle. (which I assume causesed the goose-step) Not what I would consider a positive outcome. I was faithful to the letter with physical therapy and follow up.

I don't think I'd do it again....

 

[Tammy St. Louis]

my am staff Reason , has had both back legs done TPLO, almost 3000.00 a leg he was 6yrs old for the first one and 7yrs old for the second,
I WOULD do it again in a heartbeat.
Reason has had alot of injuries in his life, Broken shoulder and broken foot ( which the foot was not diagnosed till a couple months after the break ) took him in a bunch of times to the vet , vet said there is no way it was broken , he was walking on it and so on, thought it was a muscle pull so we kept resting it ) he now has alot of arthritis in that foot, and in his shoulder too where he had surgery ,
he is now 10 yrs old and goes like a crazy man, like he was 2 yrs old, he is sore after but Not his back legs ever,
he does have a bit of arthirtis in the first leg as the leg was partially blown for almost a yr before it blew, during that time i did rest him , and he never got better,, he would seem better, then when i start increasing the exercise he would be sore again,

so we waited too long to do the first one, arthritis was already setting in , the second one we did right away , and he has never been sore on that one ever , after any amount of exercise

i would say he recovered over 90%
he did go back to agility , but was retired due to the front leg injuries buggin him ,
he went back to dog sledding and did really well with that, last yr i retired him from that , he was 9 and getting sore,

I have heard of 2 dogs having the rope put in , BOTH strings snapped after a few yrs

my friend had a TTA ( i belive ) with her pit bull at the same time, and NOTHING but problems with him , leg swelling, had to back for more surgery a couple times, he NEVER recovered properly.

i think the key is get a good surgeon who has done MANY , ( i traveled 7 hrs one way to get a good surgeon ) and have been very happy
that vet told me the dog would make a full recovery , has seen many field working labs go back and have a full recovery and full career after
he also told me 30% chance of the other leg going, but i only know of ONE dog ever , thats other leg did NOT go afterwards, it was a standard poodle..

so i would say prepare for the other to go also ,

at the same time a student of mine had a shepX that blew hers , they decided to do nothing, it took about 2 yrs , and then she could come out on our dog walks, but i would say NEVER the same, and deffianlty a pet, never could do anything active except for a walk .. and swim ,

Not sure if this helps, but if it was me , i would do it again in a heatbeat,,
and rehab and recovery period are really key .. dont rush them

how old is Kita ?

 

[Jim Nash]

I've seen several PSDs throughout the years in my unit have the surgery and come back to a good working career . Not quite 100 percent though . Some ended up tearing their other ACL down the road curiously enough . My dog had a partial tear a few years ago . No surgery but I stopped all agility type training and even skipped that part in our certifications . But on the street he still did his job and jumped things easily , just had a funny gate while running .

 

[Kadi Thingvall]

Gonna try to answer various questions all in one post.

Kita is 3.5 years old, 4 in Nov.

This was a sudden injury, vs something building up over time, she's never been lame in the rear before. Kita is a spinner when she's excited, tight spins to the right. I believe what happened is that while we were outside and all the dogs were running around, she got excited about a neighbor, spun, and the foot didn't turn with the body, it's the back right leg that is injured.

It's a partial tear, not a complete rupture. There is no drawer movement or discernible instability, this is from 2 vets, who both examined her awake and then sedated. The diagnosis is based on the swelling and pain in the joint, reaction to various types of flexing, limping, etc.

The specialist I took Kita to is considered one of the top ones in the area, and this type of injury is something he deals with on a regular basis. He's done various working dogs in addition to pets, my biggest concern when I asked him about that is if he really knows what working/performance dogs do to their bodies, because he started telling me about all the different jobs his clients do, and kind of lumped Sch and Police work in with agility and a westminster dog (for those not in the US, think Crufts, a huge dog show).

There is a 60% chance after surgery that the other leg will go. This is one of the things I found confusing. I was told she'd be 100% after surgery, which I'm skeptical of. But I was also told there is a 60% chance of the other cruciate going. I asked why and he said it's because of overuse of the non-injured leg, compensating for the injured leg. The other cruciate tends to go 9-18 months after surgery. But if the surgical leg is 100% after a 3-4 month recovery time, then why would they still be compensating for that leg to the point of blowing out the other cruciate 9-18 months later? Unless it's because surgery changes the angle of the leg (it does) and now the dog has 2 mismatched legs, even if the mismatch is minor enough we can't really see it.

 

[Adi Ibrahimbegovic]

For a pet... to have a good life after the surgery, fine, it will be okay.

working dog... going back to "usual", it's never the same, despite what the vet says. How many K9 has that vet handled, how many sch titles, or ring titles or herding titles or any other titles has he/she achieved?

As with football players, where this injury is common, it's never the same. Probably 70% their old self with a lot of arthritic pain when they get older.

So, sadly,yes. Your "probably not" is probably right. All this just IMO, of course.

I'm curious what the experiences are from people on the forum with cruciate injuries. Surgery, non-surgery, what sort of recovery did the dog have, was it able to go back to work, any future injuries, etc.

One of my dogs has a cruciate injury and after a month of crate rest I'm at the point where I'm trying to decide if I should continue with the crate rest, or consider TPLO surgery. The specialist says surgery will bring the dog back to 100%, my very limited experience says "probably not", but I'm wondering what other's experiences have shown.