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Very nice videos - I am impressed with the control, by voice alone, that you have with this young pup. :) I also like the picture of the three dogs on the scaffolding by the ceiling. Good Job!
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you, Lacey...

That obviously hardworking guy in the video is our newest member with his first working pup. He's been only around for about seven months. I worked the Dutch.

Best regards...
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Andy Andrews said:
Outstanding :!:


Al, is there anything you can't do with the dogs? It seems like there's no limit to your imagination.


Andy.
Oh there's a lot lot more that need to be learned from these creatures. May take more than a lifetime to know and understand what these creatures are capable of. They simply open up and reveal themselves while in the work, in many ways most of us don't think as possible. The obstacles are quite unstable and shaky as the dog gets higher, but the dog seems to know when to take it real slow and easy. Fantastic is when one applies other work on those obstacles. More fantastic is when one puts on the leash to actually work and experience it.

Reminds me of a Stephanitz' quote:

"Our chief means of influencing our dogs are eye, gesture and voice... a good trainer can do everything with these, without any other means at his disposal for punishment".

Interesting...

Best regards...
 
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"Our chief means of influencing our dogs are eye, gesture and voice... a good trainer can do everything with these, without any other means at his disposal for punishment".

Sounds to my ears like you are brow beating them, constant chatter etc.

What happens to the dogs that will not go up the ladder ?
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Gerry Grimwood said:
"Our chief means of influencing our dogs are eye, gesture and voice... a good trainer can do everything with these, without any other means at his disposal for punishment".

Sounds to my ears like you are brow beating them, constant chatter etc.
Pardon me, Gerry, but what exactly do you mean by your statement?


Gerry Grimwood said:
What happens to the dogs that will not go up the ladder ?
Not gonna happen, Gerry. 5-6 month pups do ladder work easy probably even more challenging. It's simply a matter of having a good working relationship and knowing how to do it. Really no big deal.

So wrong again, Tim. Each pup will have a video clip.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Best regards...
 

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Maybe it will be easier, Al, if you told us exactly what is going on rather than quoting Stephanitz all the time? :wink: Nice work btw.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Lyn Chen said:
Maybe it will be easier, Al, if you told us exactly what is going on rather than quoting Stephanitz all the time? :wink: Nice work btw.

Thank you, Lyn...

Well, I hope there's nothing wrong with quoting a man who had a lot to do with these working breeds, especially if his words are proven and indeed inspiring. I just find it interesting that I find ancient wisdom more interesting. :lol: :lol: :lol:

What's going on is all in the video. Nothing to hide. I'm sure the video will speak a lot about the pups' early foundation. The pups obey their handlers plain and simple, even under heavy stress with no need for props. And that goes for any work we do with these pups. That's it, that's all. I guess it's the simplicity that makes it, as what most describe here, as awesome.

I'm sorry if this outdated mind of mine still believes that dog-training revolves around obedience, not drive-building or bitework.

Best regards... :wink:
 

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Well, the thing is, what Stephanitz is saying is pretty much common sense for a lot of working dog traininers, otherwise we'll just have pet dogs and our dogs wouldn't be capable of doing half the things they do. ;) So I think that's what the issue is.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Lyn Chen said:
Well, the thing is, what Stephanitz is saying is pretty much common sense for a lot of working dog traininers, otherwise we'll just have pet dogs and our dogs wouldn't be capable of doing half the things they do. ;) So I think that's what the issue is.

Then I think it shouldn't really be an issue at all....

Best regards...
 
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Quote "Pardon me, Gerry, but what exactly do you mean by your statement?"

I don't mean to belittle what your are doing at all, but to my eyes the dogs really don't seem to be into it. Yes you have some nice obediance on them but what is the end result ??

By brow beating I meant constantly telling and encouraging them to perform, and this is what they are doing.

Just my .02
 

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+$0.02...we're going to get to a dollar soon... :lol:

It's only at trials that dogs get ONE command...in theory.

In real life, working dogs must go over, under and through many things they have never been exposed to...with a HUGE number of very powerful distractions...and they need encouragement. The more things those dogs have already encountered, the better. ONE command = perfect response is unrealistic.

A working dog handler doesn't need for the dog to be "into it". He needs obedience.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Gerry Grimwood said:
Quote "Pardon me, Gerry, but what exactly do you mean by your statement?"

I don't mean to belittle what your are doing at all, but to my eyes the dogs really don't seem to be into it. Yes you have some nice obediance on them but what is the end result ??

By brow beating I meant constantly telling and encouraging them to perform, and this is what they are doing.

Just my .02

Thank you for the explanation, Gerry.

Yes, the pups/dogs are most of the while challenged in the work. Nothing is routined. This is not sports. Yes, the pup is stressed enough even to make adult dogs resort to flight. I've seen that many times. When stress hits a pup this much, props may not be able to hold him, much less "brow-beating". But that pup took handler's directions regardless. So what do you think made that pup perform and obey his handler?

Stress is natural, as natural as breathing. The only way to overcome stress is for the team to work thru it. Stress, once properly dealt with and overcome, becomes an effective character-builder (not drives) and a training aid second to none. Of course, I meant genetically-correct dogs.

Don't worry, Gerry, in due time the handler (who is relatively new) will be able to do that by signals. Enhancements may take some time not necessarilly on the pup but mostly on the handler. The pup is likewise young and undergoing training. It will need plenty of encouragement and involvement from his handler. Since vocal directions and praises are the only things offered, we don't scrimp on it.

Best regards...

By the way, I don't take your post as "belittling". You can only belittle if you can do the same much better.
 
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ok, maybe I'm at a buck 50 :lol:

But does obediance have a practical limit ? do dogs have to perform like circus dogs to prove this point ?

So, maybe this type of OB is great but at this speed these dogs are operating at any person with one arm and no legs could shinny across a beam and out a window and be gone, well maybe not once they hit the ground.

To me, it's just doesn't serve a purpose. If the whole excersise is to show complete obediance and control by the handler and it makes the day to day tasks seem like a walk in da park then I get it.

If this isn't the case then it's just too much fluff.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Gerry Grimwood said:
ok, maybe I'm at a buck 50 :lol:

But does obediance have a practical limit ? do dogs have to perform like circus dogs to prove this point ?

So, maybe this type of OB is great but at this speed these dogs are operating at any person with one arm and no legs could shinny across a beam and out a window and be gone, well maybe not once they hit the ground.

To me, it's just doesn't serve a purpose. If the whole excersise is to show complete obediance and control by the handler and it makes the day to day tasks seem like a walk in da park then I get it.

If this isn't the case then it's just too much fluff.
So far, you've only seen agility/obedience in man-made structures, Gerry. Of course we can make it real messy, where dogs/pups must go in groups without disturbing the structure. Then again, this is just a little portion of the entire picture. These pups are worked early so don't think that's all those pups could do. That's only part of foundation. Got a big forest right inside the property I work and the pups consider this as their second home, doing a lot of searches on all terrain under any conditions. You may not be able to compare it with what you do.

Best regards...
 
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