[Woody Taylor]

I was shooting Connie some PMs on Annie's diet and I thought it might be interesting to post it as a case study. Might be interesting to get your takes as well as Connie's, perhaps (or perhaps not!) debate the merits of things recommended. [Connie agreed to me posting this.]

I'll start off with what I sent to Connie:

Annie's almost 11 months, going through her first heat, may have clinically silent pano, grain intolerant, probably around 65-68 pounds now.

She gets three cups a day of Innova Raw and about 1.5 tsp of Solid Gold Seameal and 1.5 tsp of Scorbate. This is split across two meals.

I'm about out of Scorbate (which I understand to be Vitamin C for smaller animals). What would you recommend as supplements? Multis, hip stuff, oils...what do you think?

And here was Connie's response...

Salmon oil and vitamin E (because their systems use up Vitamin E in the processing of oil supplements). What is seameal?

If she is grain intolerant then you might not want her to have flax or canola oil for short-chain Omega 3 EFAs........ maybe a walnut or avocado oil.... but IMO, the salmon oil is primary (for long-chain Omega 3 EFAs, which are abundant ONLY in ocean products).....

I don't like fish LIVER oil because of the danger of both the liver toxins (IMO) and te possible O.D. on Vitamin A (oil-soluble).

E is oil-soluble, too, but there have been no adverse reactions in dogs even with gigantic overdoses.

So you want human-grade DISTILLED salmon oil (no heavy metals), of a good grade. I don't buy capsules because then the rancidity can be hidden. Good salmon muscle oil has no fishy or rancid smell.

Also, Glucosamine in a capsule with no Chondroitin. Chondroitin hasn't panned out the way glucosamine has, and the recent study that threw some shadow over glucosamine was flawed, IMO: it studied a lot of individuals, but assessed only severe arthritic pain in very elderly patients.

If she is symptomless, MSM probably unnecessary.

Salmon oil (Omega 3 EFAs) is a big anti-inflammation agent, and inflammation is at the heart of many systemic diseases, from arthritis to atherosclerosis.

The Vitamin C can also be given in food.

If you feed ripe fruit, make it low-sugar, like blueberries, etc., because if she is grain-intolerant, no sense giving sugar (no sense giving sugar anyway). I do feed fruit.

No multis with a commercial food....... too much overlap, IMO. If you want to feed a certain vitamin, I really like to feed a food rich in that vitamin instead.

Check her food....it may have the RDA of C.

JMO.

Don't faint at the $$ of salmon oil.... the portion is small. And feed it to you and your wife, too. (Don't heat it or cook with it. Good added to salad dressing.)

The best: http://www.crnusa.org/o3group.html

I buy Nordic Naturals because it's what brand the natural foods store down the street carries. I get the one with lemon peel oil in it because it's good on salad, and the dogs don't care.

 

[Woody Taylor]

Connie, here's the link to the Solid Gold Seameal website. Here's another link to their "claims" about the product. I like it quite a bit, it's very popular up here. I think its basic claim is increasing the digestibility of food. All I know is that Annie's coat is glossy and she seems healthy--we get complements all the time on her coat and appearance.

Innova has a bunch of stuff in it including glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate. I cannot tell how much of either it has.

I also occassionally mix in, for the sake of variety, very tiny amounts of dehydrated lamb lung, or .5 of a banana, or a local dog training treat that's oat-based and which Annie seems to tolerate well. Again, small amounts more for "flavor" than feeding.

She also gets bully sticks, 1-2 a week, and large cow bones which don't seem that appealing for her depending on the week or her mood. :?: She's never been a high-drive animal relative to food, and a relatively laid-back chewer, I guess.

That's pretty much it. Any comments? What would you propose in addition to/instead of Connie's recommendations? And Connie, now that I've actually listed pretty much everything...any other thoughts?

Oh yeah, and on your comment about Vitamin C RDAs...what's your take on LOTS of Vitamin C for a dog? I remember with people that some scientists (the late great Linus Pauling in particular) swear by mega-doses of Vitamin C.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Let me just reply to one thing first and then come back (and I hope lots of people hop on here, too!)......

Linus Pauling is one of my heroes. Much of his most-published theory has been somewhat debunked, but boy, did he break new ground. (Lived almost a century, too!)

The deal with C is that the body will take what it can use and dump the rest. It gets peed out, and if you've taken a ton, it gets diarrhea'd out.

OTOH, I had a family doctor (in the 80s) who thought that it was possible that large doses of C might irritate the immune system (his word) into activity.

I still take large doses at the start of a cold and I still never have colds longer than 2 days or so. Who knows whether they are related? I take zinc too, and maybe that's the cold-basher.

As far as taking "extra" C for skeletal problems, I haven't read enough that wasn't anecdotal or completely un-authoritative.

Has someone else? I'd like to read more about the giant-breed C advice I keep seeing.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Does Innova Raw mean Innova Evo?

It took a long time for me to make that connection.

I was going back over posts looking for atopic dermatitis problems, because I have new info (another post), when I revisited this one.

Since you mention grain intolerance, you probably refer to Innove Evo (no grain). Duh!

That food is very high in protein. Do you still think the dog might have pano?

 

[Woody Taylor]

Does Innova Raw mean Innova Evo?

It took a long time for me to make that connection.

I was going back over posts looking for atopic dermatitis problems, because I have new info (another post), when I revisited this one.

Since you mention grain intolerance, you probably refer to Innove Evo (no grain). Duh!

That food is very high in protein. Do you still think the dog might have pano?

Yeah, Innova Evo...

I don't know about the pano. Doesn't seem to bother her if it's there. Seems like she's okay. Doing lots of swimming this summer.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

.......I don't know about the pano. Doesn't seem to bother her if it's there. Seems like she's okay. ......

Good!

That food has way more protein than a lot of DVMs recommend for a dog with pano (or for any large breed growing dog).

I think it has something like 40% protein as opposed to the usual recommendation of about 20-25%.

 

[Woody Taylor]

.......I don't know about the pano. Doesn't seem to bother her if it's there. Seems like she's okay. ......

Good!

That food has way more protein than a lot of DVMs recommend for a dog with pano (or for any large breed growing dog).

I think it has something like 40% protein as opposed to the usual recommendation of about 20-25%.

What balance do you keep in your raw diet?

Seems to be going really well for us. 1.5 cups or a bit more 2x a day with a teaspoon or so of Seameal stirred into some water. Very firm stools, glossy coat, seems like shedding is minimal, etc. I have the fat cat on Innova Cat as well but she's still a fat, dry, shedding mess.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

.....What balance do you keep in your raw diet?.....

That is probably the approx percent of protein I feed, but I don't have any growing dogs who have or could have pano.

I was quoting articles and web sites I've read about pano and high-protein kibble.

But it sounds like you don't have a pano puppy after all. 8)

 

[Woody Taylor]

But it sounds like you don't have a pano puppy after all. 8)

Knock on wood. Dreading the x-rays at 18 months, though. Such a bad experience last time.