[Kristen Cabe]

I don't remember if I've asked this question before or not, but with the discussion on sleeve-carrying dogs in another thread, I figured it was relevent.


I KNOW I've mentioned the fact that Jak would rather thrash the sleeve around and kill it than prance around with it in his mouth.

At SchH training, I was told that we needed to work on teaching him to sit and hold it without thrashing it, and then we could work on him carrying it.

At ASR training, they couldn't understand why that was so important. I tried to explain to them that at SchH training they wanted him to carry the sleeve in a counterclockwise circle once it was slipped, but they couldn't understand why, and of course, I couldn't answer that question because I don't know either.

So that's my question: Why is it so important for the dog to carry the sleeve after it's slipped?

 

[Andres Martin]

To preserve a long standing tradition.

:lol:

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

If a dog trashes or just don´t want his parade, i don´t do it. It is important for his winning feelings what gets him even higher in his preydrive.
As long as i´m working on prey (puppies till aprox 10-12 mo., depends on the dog) they may win and carry, when i get to civil agitation (from 10-12 mo., depends on the dog) they don´t win anymore.

 

[Bob Scott]

One of the reasons for carrying the sleeve is to keep the dog from getting chewy. It's when a dog stops that it starts chewing. Shaking is another thing altogether.
Teaching the full, calm bite is important in Schutzhund. Not so much in ASR.
Kinda like me. Chewing bubble gum and walking at the same time is difficult sometimes. :lol:

 

[Kristen Cabe]

When Jak is on the man, he has a full, calm, and confident bite. He doesn't chew or rebite when he's on the helper/decoy; it's only after he wins the sleeve that the thrashing and 'killing' happens. He wins the sleeve and then shakes it from side to side, and tries to lay down and chew on it, as you said. If I try to get him to run with it, he still shakes it and tries to lay down, which results in me essentially choking him off of it because I'm trying to drag him along and he's trying to lay down.


So should I be having him sit and hold the sleeve, then, to teach him not to thrash and 'kill' it, or not worry about it since he's fine on the helper/decoy? No defense work has been done with him to this point, so it's all still play to him right now. For those that don't remember, he's 13 1/2 months old.

 

[Jerry Lyda]

It is as Bob said. It's a calm after the storm. NO WHERE on the Schutzhund field or trial does the dog carry the sleeve. The main thing is that he bites it. I want my dog to bite it, carry if he will and if he doesn't carry he better be watching the decoy.

 

[Jerry Lyda]

kristen I'll see you Saturday and we'll work on him with the carry.

Now, he thinks it's dead no more fight in it so he plays with it. I'll show you how to keep it alive until you ask him to out it or sit there with it,calmly.

 

[Andres Martin]

Hi Jerry,

I've done the parading and playing with the sleeve a bunch, but I've never done that (Have the dog sit there calmly with the sleeve in his mouth) before. How do you do it, and what is the purpose behind it? What particular dogs does this benefit? In what way?

Thanks,

Andres.

 

[Kristen Cabe]

Jerry, I would appreciate it very much.

Andres, Wayne said he likes to teach the dog to sit and calmly hold the sleeve before he tries to get the dog to move with it. He says it's easier that way.

 

[Bob Scott]

It is as Bob said. It's a calm after the storm. NO WHERE on the Schutzhund field or trial does the dog carry the sleeve. The main thing is that he bites it. I want my dog to bite it, carry if he will and if he doesn't carry he better be watching the decoy.

Absolutely the best reason for people to quit worrying about the dog shaking, thrashing, laying down and chewing on the sleeve.
It doesn't happen in a trial. No helper in his right mind is going to slip a sleeve for a dog he may never have seen before.

 

[Kristen Cabe]

Well, see, that's what I was thinking, but others have said that carrying builds the dog's confidence, and shaking is a sign of conflict, etc. So I don't know what to think. :lol:

 

[Jerry Lyda]

Andres, Your question," How do you do it."

After the dog has bitten the sleeve you want to be close so that you can bend over and put one hand under the dogs lower jaw. Here you can help support the weight of the sleeve. YOU STAY CALM. The leash will be in the other hand. Slowly move the leash hand so that you can slowly stroke the dog Calmly with quite praise. Stay there as long as he does. When he drops it lift him up so that he can't rebite and kick the sleeve away. Now you start all over. Ain't this fun????

 

[David Frost]

I understand this is a sport thing, but I've never understood it. In my business, slipping the sleeve will get you bit. We practice different scenarios where an attempt it made to distract the dog. I've said before, we train; the dog bites when told and continues biting until he's commanded to do something different.

DFrost

 

[Stacia Porter]

I don't remember if I've asked this question before or not, but with the discussion on sleeve-carrying dogs in another thread, I figured it was relevent.


I KNOW I've mentioned the fact that Jak would rather thrash the sleeve around and kill it than prance around with it in his mouth.

At SchH training, I was told that we needed to work on teaching him to sit and hold it without thrashing it, and then we could work on him carrying it.

At ASR training, they couldn't understand why that was so important. I tried to explain to them that at SchH training they wanted him to carry the sleeve in a counterclockwise circle once it was slipped, but they couldn't understand why, and of course, I couldn't answer that question because I don't know either.

So that's my question: Why is it so important for the dog to carry the sleeve after it's slipped?

I'm so glad you posted this, Kristen! I've been meaning to ask the same question since you told me about Jak's thrashing.

Achilles was taught to slip the sleeve and carry it calmly. We were always told by our SchH club in Germany that this was the way its done. It does occur to me, though, that parading the sleeve shows off a dog's gait, so maybe that has something to do with it?

BTW, they DO slip the sleeve during the courage tests at the BundesSieger (I watched them do it). I'm not sure if it's done during the actual trial, but it is done at the courage tests...not one of hte dogs we saw did anything but carry it away (of course this was the "show" dogs; I didn't get the chance to go to the BSP like I wanted).

I can see how this could be dangerous for a helper...

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

There is alot to carrying a sleeve, alot goes on in a dogs head with this and alot of things are taught to a dog. The reason it has such a bad reputation among "real" dog trainers is because most trainers don't know why its done, they just do what they were taught to do. I can't explain it as well as my trainer can, he's a master at explaining the how and the why of training to people, but he doesn't post on message forums. I'm hoping someone can jump in here and perhaps explain it better than I could.

 

[Jerry Lyda]

I can see where it's about winning for a young dog. This builds confidence to a young dog that is not sure. Then it becomes habit as the dog gets older even though he is now confident. If a young dog will go civil and has no fixation for the sleeve or anyother piece of equipment then so be it.

A dog that will not carry the sleeve and is bitting good, if you watch him, he will keep his attention on the decoy.

So I see the carrying of the sleeve as two things. 1- builds confidence 2-the calm after the storm. my $.02

 

[Jerry Lyda]

I'm sure these aren't the only two reasons. This is a good topic. Anyone else see a reason or reasons for carrying the sleeve? Let's get to the bottom of this question. This will be fun.

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

If the sleeve carrying is so mandatory, then why don't the ring dogs do it? From what I can see, some dogs "might" need to carry the sleeve, but honestly look at why they "need" to do this. Did the encounter with the decoy leave them in such a state that they need to de-stress by carrying the sleeve around? Or, has the handler, for no reason other than they have seen others do this have his dog do so? I watched a dog carry a sleeve around for 20 minutes. It was trained to do so, as I saw no other reason for it.

De-stressing a dog allows it to compete in a sport. Take that away, and would the dog be able to handle the work?

Kristen, your dog probably doesn't need to carry squat. Leave the weak dog help to the weak dogs, and just take the sleeve from him. And for God's sake, stick with ASR. Sch is just soooooo much crap. Of course, ASR is crap compared to Mondio, and French ring, so maybe you should try those instead. Leave the weak to the weak. :twisted: :lol:

 

[Kristen Cabe]

Jeff, do you honestly think I could train for Mondio right now?! I'm having a hard enough time with the "easy" SchH stuff! :lol: Jak DID take right to the suit, though. No hesitation to bite from my boy! As long as he gets to bite something, he's happy - even if it means dragging all the equipment off the equipment table.


I'd like to get a video of me and Jak this weekend, so then I can post it and you all can laugh at my clumsy butt, but more importantly, see Jak's behavior from start to finish, and then tell me what the deal is. I honestly don't think it's from stress; I think it's just that he still views the sleeve the same way he views his toy, and it's all just a game still (He's still young and very new to doing it, after all). He is just shaking the sleeve like he does his toys here at home when he plays with them. It isn't that he's beating the sleeve up or anything like that.

 

[Jerry Lyda]

Now let's see what the FRENCH offer. 1- French fries 2- French fries 3- and don't forget, white flags. No, ASR is the only way to go.

I just order fries now, I hate to even type the word.

Glad you're here Jeff.