[Sarah Hall]

Ok, so a few friends of mine were thinking about getting into protection work. They're considering getting pups out of BoXGretchen's litter, so I decided I'd let them see a Bo son. Who better than Carbon?! Well, I just so happened to mention he was starting bitework and blah de blah. So it ended up they both said OK we'll let him bite us with the sleeve on and I said great, it's in the car (I don't think they thought I was serious). After I gave them very clear instructions on what to do, and what NOT to do, I grabbed the sleeve out of the trunk and got Carbon on his agitation collar. Well, I wish I had my video camera on, because I have never EVER seen Carbon do SO WELL!
Nobody that day walked away WITHOUT some sort of bruise/mark. Carbon usually has great pressure on the puppy sleeve, but he definately stepped it up a notch today.
First, here's Derek's bruise/cut on his neck. Not quite sure what happend, but it may have been a paw smack:
Click for picture
Next, here's Jen's bruise from Carbon taking her out (she tripped and fell right as Carbon was going for the sleeve on the back-tie, and Carbon decided to say screw the sleeve and nailed her in the upper butt area)
Click for picture
And here's one from me
Click for picture
Pretty productive day, I'd say!

 

[Andres Martin]

Pretty productive day, I'd say!

Only if YOU learned from it. Be safe. You may seriously regret accidents later on.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

.....Only if YOU learned from it. Be safe. You may seriously regret accidents later on.

What he said.

 

[Sarah Hall]

Clarify.. accidents?

 

[Greg Long]

Clarify.. accidents?

A trip to the hospital for reconstructive surgery.Clear enough?

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Clarify.. accidents?

OK. "Thinking of getting into protection work," and "considering getting pups" means to me that they are absolutely inexperienced, not even dog owners, never mind decoys, saying "OK we'll let him bite us."

Unless this was actually much different from the way it sounds, then this is an accident waiting to happen, and you and Carbon were at liability risk because of their risk.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Clarify.. accidents?

A trip to the hospital for reconstructive surgery.Clear enough?

Thank you, Greg. We posted together, and your reply is much better.

 

[Sarah Hall]

Oh, no no they have both owned dogs before, German Shepherds in fact, but this would be their first working protection dogs. You have to start sometime getting into bitework. Rarely are people born into it, you know. Believe me, I didn't just slip the sleeve on them and say OK go at it!
"Thinking of getting into protection work" means just that. You have to start somewhere, and they've done their homework. I actually told them about this site....
"Considering getting pups" means they are considering many different litters, and comparing the individual parents and pups, on of those litters just so happens to be BoXGretchen.
It's really funny... people on here award others for taking their first bite after they've done their homework, yet if I post something like that you are ready to rip it apart. People know what risks they assume when they take on things. Contrary to what some believe on here (yes, I've gotten your e-mails) I'm not some stupid teenager out fooling around with things I don't know about. If someone else does something stupid after I told them not to, it's not MY fault. I'd much rather they come to me than some "trainer" that never has actually trained a protection dog. All you can do is hope for the best and support those wanting to get into the sport.

 

[Connie Sutherland]

......It's really funny... people on here award others for taking their first bite after they've done their homework, yet if I post something like that you are ready to rip it apart......

Well, I can't speak for Andres or Greg, but I wasn't at all treating this post any differently than I would have treated the same post from someone else. It sounded like very inexperienced people agreeing to take a bite with no understanding.

And I *certainly* have never sent you or anyone else an email saying you were a stupid teenager.

 

[Sarah Hall]

I said you in general to the people on here who know they sent me e-mails that i just never replied to. Didn't mean it directed to you, Connie.

 

[Greg Long]

If someone has sent you emails like that,they are the stupid ones. :x

You are right,we all have to start somewhere.OTH I dont like to use inexperienced decoys for my dogs,even young dogs.If it is someone who has no experience I have to know them pretty well and I have to trust them before Ill let them mess with my dogs.This is to protect everyone involved,including the dogs.If I have noone like that then I dont do bitework.All we are saying is be careful..

 

[Al Curbow]

I don't care about experience. If you're willing to put the suit on, i'm going to work my dog on you,

AL

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

.OTH I dont like to use inexperienced decoys for my dogs,even young dogs.If it is someone who has no experience I have to know them pretty well and I have to trust them before Ill let them mess with my dogs.This is to protect everyone involved,including the dogs.

Agree. Inexperienced decoys learn to decoy on very experienced, older dogs. The dogs know what is going to happen, so the decoy can make a little mistake. First months it is close-by work, not at 100 m.
We have a young decoy, decoying for about a year now.
He isnt ready yet to work the young dogs, so my (very experienced) hubby does the young dogs. It is so very important to know what your doing when you work young dogs, so only the most experienced decoys are allowed to work the young dogs.

 

[David Frost]

It's much more important to have an experienced decoy working young dogs than it is for older dogs. I can't speak for sport dogs, but for us the question, relative older dogs is the safety of the decoy. During intial training, of course I worry about the dog. With the older ones, a decoy definately needs to know enough to protect himself. The only experience he needs is to be sure an use a protected part of the body. In real life, a person being apprehended probably doesn't know a thing about "proper decoy technique". To a good dog, it won't matter at all.

DFrost

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

If you are competing in high level Schutzhund/IPO you don't want your dog to make mistakes, so working on a new decoy means your dog will be allowed to make mistakes that could cost points down the line if the habit continues. There's few decoys my trainer will let work his competition dogs, I am one of those decoys, but even I won't catch the dogs at a distance on a sleeve, because I don't want to risk screwing something up when my sleeving isn't 100% every single time. If you have a decoy who understands what you are trying to accomplish and can listen to instruction very well then great, but all too often I see people who are brand new to decoying who need to be told 20 times how to hold the sleeve, and in the case of a sleeve with a bite bar, alot of people seem to have issues understanding that the bar needs to be angled to the dog... these are very simple basic concepts, yet some people just don't "get it" or need it pounded into their head before they get it.

 

[Andres Martin]

Sarah...it's not only about new decoys...it's more a matter of handler mistakes. I believe you showed an accidental NECK BITE???...plus one ON YOU????

The point is crystal...be careful. No need to argue about that. The bruises you show us, WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED, even with a new decoy...if YOUR dog had been in the hands of a careful and experienced handler.

Chalk it up as a VERY VALUABLE lesson, and be thankful the damage was minimal.

 

[Sarah Hall]

No, that wasn't a neck bite. If he actually BIT the guy's neck that would've been bad. It was either a stick and the guys a wuss or it was a paw slap at worst. I don't know how that could look like a bite, no offense.
The bruise on me is simple: the dog put more jaw pressure on the bite sleeve than normal and I bruise easily and the outcome is obvious. I've been bruised in my sleep, it's not that anything negligent is going on, it's simply an equation of an easily bruised person + dog biting on puppy sleeve harder than usual = bruised person.
I don't know why everything gets taken out of context on here....

 

[Connie Sutherland]

......I don't know why everything gets taken out of context on here....

:lol: :lol: Oh, I think it's more like working with the info given.

Several people have pointed out their opnions of totally inexperienced people acting as "decoy" for a young dog. Nothing out of context there.....

 

[Connie Sutherland]

Maybe, chalk it up to opinions from people who have been around long enough to have seen how fast friends turn into ex-friends (of the "see you in court" variety) when they sustain an expensive injury, and how inexperienced "decoys" working a young dog might be a mistake. :wink:

 

[David Frost]

<<<<been around long enough to have seen how fast friends turn into ex-friends (of the "see you in court" variety) when they sustain an expensive injury,>>>>

Which is why many departments limit civilian participation. Government has deep pockets.

DFrost