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Discussion Starter #21
Howard

how often do you see handlers who are applying excessive compulsion who are not frustrated ? for me, almost never

again, hard to put in words but "firm physical control" means an entirely different thing to me than "excessive physical compulsion"

to put it into 'made for TV terms'
Cesar sometimes uses firm physical control to calm a dog, but he also gets frustrated and uses excessive physical compulsion to shut them down
- at least that's how i have observed his actions

some other member here recently posted you can learn from the good, bad and the ugly

for me, this choice of words seems clear and very different, but some may require a video
 

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i've seen it here a LOT over the years and know it's relevant to any kind of dogwork, even tho i learned it from a guy who may have never owned a dog !
Interesting post rick. I'm interested in photography as well.

It's a curious thing that knowledge can expand, even completely transform a ones life experience or journey. I have large notebook on my desk just for things like you mentioned. Course, it's for more than just taking notes, the real purpose of it is just as you said, which is to apply as much of that as possible and add follow up notes.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
we all comment how "everything goes up/down the leash"

- i've met my share of dogs who need to learn there IS someone at the other end of the lead and hope people don't rush to judgement and think that means i think they need to be choked or hung up .....

i use chokers and prongs but NEVER consider them a permanent collar like a lot of people i cross paths with. whenever i put one on i have a plan for when it comes off.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
a benny from dog work is i still have strong wrists and can shoot with medium format cameras and long lenses without getting sore //lol//
 

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I adhered to one rule (if you will) when it came to photography, which was that it must always remain raw.

Too much in our lives are translations or rather extensions of the ego (control). As such, I never learned how to use a camera. Instead, I chose to learn how to see or capture natural expression. And no, the photos in my photo gallery are not examples of what that actually looks like.
 

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I've heard said that the talent of the true artists is how they see the world. Maybe this bridges to the dog training world too... really looking and seeing what is front of you (e.g. the dog and its behaviors). Best advice I've heard is build a bond and then use it for developing the dog.
 

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Howard

how often do you see handlers who are applying excessive compulsion who are not frustrated ? for me, almost never

again, hard to put in words but "firm physical control" means an entirely different thing to me than "excessive physical compulsion"
Not as often as I used to...and often enough to wonder why those people aren't up to speed on current training methods. I still see the local Air Force guys crack their dogs during OB sessions. Just a few years ago I saw an AF trainer working with a new handler. The dog was very drivey but the handler cracked that dog maybe 50 times in 20 minutes. At the end the dog was still sloppy due to fear of the handler. Totally shut the dog down. At the end, the handler produced a toy for the dog and you shoulda seen that dog come alive, even after all the compulsion. A forward thinking person shoulda seen that and went, Hmmmm...how can we work with this to our advantage. Nope, if it ain't in the manual they ain't gonna use it. Lots of AF handlers end up in the civilian world working dogs. Guess what they bring with them? Our local S.O. still has trainers like that.:cry:
 

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I've heard said that the talent of the true artists is how they see the world. Maybe this bridges to the dog training world too... really looking and seeing what is front of you (e.g. the dog and its behaviors). Best advice I've heard is build a bond and then use it for developing the dog.
Meg, there's definitely truth to that. We've got 8 artists in our studio and it's not just how they see the world but also how they interact with the elements within it that illustrates your statement well.

I've referred to certain dog handlers as artists in what they do. There is a certain fluidity that is apparent; so much so that it's beautiful to watch.
 

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If someone could tell me how to "fix" a helper that lacks coordination and has no sense of timing, I would be grateful. They have the best of intentions but 'lack the gifts' to do it very well. I keep wondering if there is some kind of exercise that they could do to fix what is inherently not coming to them easily.
 

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Unfortunately Sarah, I think practice is the only 'exercise' and that still can be costly in the dog training department... Timing, 'feel', intune, aware, savvy, lots of words for what is needed when working with animals (including humans) but some people are just existing when with the dog, and react rather then be an active participant in the training... From what I've seen in the horse world, it takes time and a desire to do so.. Most just want the animal to change- not themselves
 

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If someone could tell me how to "fix" a helper that lacks coordination and has no sense of timing, I would be grateful. They have the best of intentions but 'lack the gifts' to do it very well. I keep wondering if there is some kind of exercise that they could do to fix what is inherently not coming to them easily.
Yes, figure out what does come to them naturally and work off that.
 

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Yes, figure out what does come to them naturally and work off that.
Working on this angle but I keep getting surprised.

I was wondering if I could use some kind of sound marker but the dog is clicker trained and I don't want the dog to learn a new association.
 

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e collar, page feature.

I have no idea what you are trying to correct but a thought occurred to me. If you keep having the same issues, or assortment of issues over and over, then maybe the source of the problem is you.
 

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e collar, page feature.

I have no idea what you are trying to correct but a thought occurred to me. If you keep having the same issues, or assortment of issues over and over, then maybe the source of the problem is you.
Always a possibility that it could be me. Didn't explain it enough, overmatched the person's skills, etc It's a conundrum.
 

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Always a possibility that it could be me. Didn't explain it enough, overmatched the person's skills, etc It's a conundrum.
Have you ever had two people with you, one who is there for the day to lay the track and does it, and the other is one who might do it for you with some regularity. Purpose? That second person is given responsibility for issuing the instructions and then they will run the dog. You are there to answer questions and observe.

You seem pretty creative and self sufficient so I suspect you've already done this. But if not, what better way to give a person perspective on what it's like on the other end. In fact, you might pick up something along the way in terms of how a lesser experienced person might explain that process to someone else. You might also get a situation where your left is actually the other left.

In my corporate job, I work with a lot of people who have considerable experience vs peers in other locations with significantly less experience. We use the same terms and all appear to speak the same language but we are so far off base from one another at times it's not even funny.

A strategy I use is to purposefully distance myself from specific processes so I don't lose the capacity to see problems/scenarios, or even follow instructions in a way that my staff cannot even begin to relate to.
 
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