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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is my boy Havok doing some basic FR training. Face and defense. I just got him back about 4 or 5 months ago, having to completely redo what little foundation he had, in the bitework and the obed (straight compulsion, and lots of it). I'm hoping to trial him for the Brevet at the end of the month, but we'll see. My decoy just left this morning for a month so ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8fkKCDz4e8
 

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He's a good lookin boy....really like his name...Havok:) Like that tad higher crotch bite in defense of handler. Nice outs and recalls.

A few questions as I'm trying to learn this sport - when Steve gets here I'm sure he'll educate me also:

Is it preferable, when teaching a dog the leg bites, to direct his positioning on the leg in such a way that depending on which leg he is engaging he should engage one way or another - say when biting the decoy's left leg...you would want the dog to bite in such a way that his head is on the outside of the leg versus having him engage from between the decoy's leg so that the head of the dog is between the decoy's legs? Or is it preferred to permit the dog to do what comes natural for him/her?

I noticed when Havoc was given the command to out...he outed...then the decoy stood up while Havoc was still in front of him...I like this...out means out...unless a decoy of course launches an attack on dog or handler. So the decoys in FR are permitted to move, instead of freeze up, after the out?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
When the dog comes in for the bite, if they are biting properly they will have their eyes turned to the outside. You will see a dog catch a decoy the other way sometimes, but they should be automatically turning their head "eyes outside" If they aren't, they aren't in a position to stretch out to catch the decoy during an esquive or other escape. Also if they are eyes inside, the decoy can mess with them squeezing them between their legs, and messing with the top of their head.

Havok ended up in the crotch because he tried to go high on the hit during the defense. I prefer he not bite there, but it happened. It's not his normal target, so I'm OK with it (take what you can get). But if a dog starts targeting that area all the time it's a bad habit, as the decoy can easily remove that area for biting. So the dog needs to be looking at other options.

The decoy is supposed to freeze when the handler tells their dog to out. But many times they are in an awkward position so they will slowly stand up or otherwise adjust themselves after the dog has outed. The dog needs to be clear on slow movements, which are just adjustments or the start of an escort, and fast movements which are an escape and mean bite.
 

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Thanks for the response to my questions Kadi....you gotta keep postin video's they are great for those of us wanting to learn..... and of course I get a chance to pick your brain for training advice:)
 

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This is what i love about decoy work with ring dogs. you can move and the dog is only aloud to bite if you attempt an escape. in the upper levels the escort is just you and the dog and you are tryin to mess him up the whole time. that and the object guard are my favorite exercises well i like tryin to steal the dog from the handler in the DOH. You can move alot and actually touch the dog in some exercises. It's all about stealin points as a decoy. well and properly working the dog to to hurt it. And a preferable bit is with the head turned outside and below the upper thigh or knee. Here are a couple pics of preferable bites.
BRAXTON


TororingIICHAMPION2006


Nyco OT VITOSHA
 

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Thanks for the response to my questions Kadi....you gotta keep postin video's they are great for those of us wanting to learn..... and of course I get a chance to pick your brain for training advice:)
Kadi is a very nice lady can't wait to pick up some of her bloodlines. Keep up the good work Kadi
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Some dogs do seem to just know how to turn their heads, others don't and need to be taught. How much is genetic and how much isn't, who knows. By the time the pup is ready to bite the pants, or even a tug on the leg, who knows how much it's learned just through play with the handler? And how much is the decoy doing the initial presentation, there is some very subtle stuff that can be done to get a dog to turn it's head correctly, which the handler may or may not even realize is being done.

I'll try to find a video clip, but see if you can visualize.

Dog is coming down the field. There are a couple of basic esquive moves. One, the decoy is stationary and at the last minute tries to sweep the leg the dog is targeted to out of the way. The other the decoy takes off at a 45 degree angle to the dog. The second face in the video is a good example of this type of move, although it would be better if the video was on the decoy the entire time, not the dog. There are of course other moves, but these are the most common/basic ones.

If the decoy at the last second takes off to the decoy's right, I want my dog to bite the leading leg, which is the right leg. If he's heading for the left leg by the time he gets there that leg will be gone, so I want him almost heading the decoy off, but not aiming to far ahead or the decoy can just stop and my dog will sail on past. If my dog is heading for the decoys right leg he's going to be reaching out and to his (the dog's) left to reach for the bite. If he head is turned any direction other than "eye's outside" he's going to get torqued big time if he catches that leg. Not to mention he just can't reach nearly as far to catch the leg if he's turned "eye's inside". It's possible sometimes he'll end up catching the left leg in this scenario, which would make him "eyes inside" but the goal is the right leg.

Same is true for the more stationary type of pivot.

If you watch the video of Havok, in the 3rd face he is esquived because he doesn't reach out and snag that right leg. In part because he didn't have his head turned far enough to the left to be able to reach out, it was more up/down.

This video of Chaos shows the esquive attempt, and her catching the decoy. And it's not that spectacular of a catch, visualize a faster entry, and her just barely catching him, and you'll see the type of torque I'm talking about. It's a longer video so you will need high speed connection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDBzaunJiGk

1:17 - entry on the attack with gun
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
As far as bite location, personally I prefer my dogs to bite with their spine reasonably level. So I don't want a little dog reaching up to the upper thigh, but at the same time don't want a great big dog biting down in the lower calf. I think it's better for their head/neck if things are level on entry. There is more available fabric in the calf of most suits though, so many dogs will bite there because they can get a better bite. It's harder to bite above the knee, many suits are tight there so the dog has to work a lot harder to get a better grip.
 

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Lacey, Kadi told me when I started training Bane that when she turned her head the wrong way, the decoy should stop and I should choke her off that bite. No reward there. I actually did this at home with my husband and a long tug, one end looped on the foot, (the way we taught her to turn her head initially), instead of with an actual decoy. It only took us a couple of sessions for her to get the drift, and she always turns her head right now.

She automatically goes for the calf on short bites, but on long bites, she tends to go higher. There is a 'sweet spot' on the inner thigh where most suits seem to have more extra fabric than on the rest of the thigh, and I'd like to get her aiming that way a little more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thank you. Is head positioning another factor when judging the quality of the bite?
Not 100% on your question. In FR they don't judge grips. When I'm looking at a dog from a breeder POV I do look at grips, and I definitely take into account not only head position, but where on the leg the dog is biting. If the head isn't turned left or right, the dog isn't going to be able to get a full grip on the leg. Suits just aren't made for that. If they do have their head turned left/right, I still want to look at where on the leg they are biting. A calf bite affords a lot more suit than a thigh bite. So the dog on the thigh might appear to be biting with only a 3/4 mouth, but that may be all there is to get. Plus you have to take into account what the decoy is doing during the entire fight. IMO at the upper levels the guard of object is really the only exercise that you can see the dogs real gripping style, since the decoy is static. Otherwise their may be enough movement/fight from the decoy that the dog has no chance to counter. At lower levels the work isn't strong enough to affect the dogs grip, ie the dog has a chance to get a full grip if they want it, and also pull, drive in, etc.
 

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Nice to read the reasons you want a dog with the eyes outside when biting the leg.

We want the eyes inside and below the knee on a legbite, especially with the stickattack ´cause the dogs body will go beside the decoy instead of in front. The decoy will go forwards in the attack, and if you do it the other way around the decoy will trip over the dog.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
If there wasn't an esquive in FR, I would agree with that position (eyes in). It would be easier on the dog when the decoy is driving forward. Instead you will see dogs being forced backwards, or run right over the top of if they are small enough. The female I'm currently trialing is like that. She's not a really big dog, and a large/strong decoy can run right over her, jamming her up. It's happened, multiple times. Mainly because she won't try to get her body out of the way, but tries to stand their and push into the grip. Hmmm, 50 lb dog 200lb man, wonder who will win that war LOL
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
No offense taken, I'm actually still trying to figure out where you would get that impression (true curiosity) Since I come from the camp of "this is how it's done" I've never really looked at how it might appear to someone outside the sport. Do you feel if something is a natural behavior there is an element of avoidance in it? I've always looked at it as more a case of "the most effective way to get the job done".

The head orientation really just happens during training. I don't think I've ever run into a dog who was really insistent on turning their head the wrong way, unless they had really bad foundation work. But if you think about it, there aren't many other ways for the dog to turn it's head.

If you watch an FR decoy starting leg work, they will present the leg to be bitten at a 30-45 degree angle. IE if this was their legs, like this |\

For the dog to bite eyes out just takes a slight turn of the head. For them to bite eyes in would mean cranking their head almost upside down. They'd have to be REALLY committed to the concept of eyes in to even get that bite. Over time, with enough reps, eyes out just becomes a habit. If for some reason the dog does want to bite with the head up/down vs turned, then I just have the decoy make a slightly larger angle with the leg, making it so the lack of head turn still turns into an eyes out bite once they are on the bite and the foot is on the ground. Then slowly decrease the angle of the leg, as the dog learns to turn the head.

This is why I'm really not sure if it's genetic or not, it's such a basic part of the foundation the dogs "just do it".

Selena, how do you teach the "eyes in"? I'm assuming the leg has to stay on the ground, since any angle would make an eyes out strike easier on the dog physically.
 

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avoidance wouldn't be biting at all right. lol I don't think the eye placement means anything toward behavior. I think it's mostly safety for the dog. so they don't get hurt with a fast moving decoy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I think what you are describing, and what I call "eyes out" are two different things. When I say "eyes out" I'm only describing the direction the dogs head is turned on the bite. What you are describing IMO (or what you were told) is what the dogs eyes are actually doing while it's biting. IE the dogs on the bite, but the eyes are shifting here and there, looking around vs looking only at the decoy. IMO yes that is a beginning sign that the dog is in over it's head. It's starting to either A) look for a way out or B) look to see what other threats might be coming. Either way, it's not completely comfortable with what's going on. When working a dog, that's one thing I look at as the decoy. The dogs eyes. Many times you will see the first flicker of "what have I gotten myself into" in the eyes before you see it any of the other body language.
 

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No offense taken, I'm actually still trying to figure out where you would get that impression (true curiosity) Since I come from the camp of "this is how it's done" I've never really looked at how it might appear to someone outside the sport. Do you feel if something is a natural behavior there is an element of avoidance in it? I've always looked at it as more a case of "the most effective way to get the job done".

The head orientation really just happens during training. I don't think I've ever run into a dog who was really insistent on turning their head the wrong way, unless they had really bad foundation work. But if you think about it, there aren't many other ways for the dog to turn it's head.

If you watch an FR decoy starting leg work, they will present the leg to be bitten at a 30-45 degree angle. IE if this was their legs, like this |\

For the dog to bite eyes out just takes a slight turn of the head. For them to bite eyes in would mean cranking their head almost upside down. They'd have to be REALLY committed to the concept of eyes in to even get that bite. Over time, with enough reps, eyes out just becomes a habit. If for some reason the dog does want to bite with the head up/down vs turned, then I just have the decoy make a slightly larger angle with the leg, making it so the lack of head turn still turns into an eyes out bite once they are on the bite and the foot is on the ground. Then slowly decrease the angle of the leg, as the dog learns to turn the head.

This is why I'm really not sure if it's genetic or not, it's such a basic part of the foundation the dogs "just do it".

Selena, how do you teach the "eyes in"? I'm assuming the leg has to stay on the ground, since any angle would make an eyes out strike easier on the dog physically.
Same way as you do I guess.

In front attack the first times the dog is put on the right place, with head slightly turned, while decoy crosses his left leg before right leg.

In back attack or for the flee/ defending handler the dog is on the right lower leg. in the backside of the knee. first times placed there, decoy signs his leg to the outside.
It becomes a habit to turn the head a certain way.

And if there was a esquive in knpv I´d choose probably eyes outside also.
 

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Foundation work on back tie or posting up by handler,decoy presents r.leg movement etc.dog does not get bite till it turns head to the right,same thing for l.leg you want to make sure dog will turn head r/l to take bites,as well as take arms just targeting technique work further will allow dog to take leading leg or pivot leg to avoid an esquive,don't want dog to chase legs or get scooped so it is important to adequately teach the dog to be an oppourtounist biter,if strong stick barrage take pocket or arm,esquived be able to take a counter bite without the momentum of the initial drive into the bite etc.target all areas thats what we try to teach also helps with basket not to chase a limb
 

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actually dog needs to turn head to the outside of the leg presented so it decoy is presenting r.leg dog should turn head to the outside to teach the proper bite technique is what I meant to say in above post
 
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