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Discussion Starter #1
Ok, so I brought up the idea of getting in touch with the ASR club in Spartanburg, SC since it's a little closer than Conover, NC for us. I had to explain what ASR was and how it is different than Schutzhund, and he brought up a very good point (at least I thought it was a good point). How well known is ASR compared to SchH? ASR is a fairly new sport, so how much 'weight' would an ASR title hold as opposed to a SchH title? Does it even matter?

Just something he has me pondering over now. What do you all think?
 

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SchH is HUGE, I meet people all the time who know about Schutzhund, not even dog people, I went to a car dealer n the sales lady was telling me about her Schutzhund malinois!!! Schutzhund is a competitive sport, titles are known by everyone who knows anything about GSD's. ASR is small, and its title is only valued by people "in the know", if someone doesn't know about Schutzhund, then they wouldn't value a Schutzhund title either right? But to someone who knows and understands what is involved in ASR, an ASR title is held in high regard. However, ASR isn't really a competitive sport, it's more of a test to test your dogs training and see if your dogs do what they are supposed to do, rather than a bragging right.
 

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Mike Schoonbrood said:
SchH is HUGE, I meet people all the time who know about Schutzhund, not even dog people, I went to a car dealer n the sales lady was telling me about her Schutzhund malinois!!! Schutzhund is a competitive sport, titles are known by everyone who knows anything about GSD's. ASR is small, and its title is only valued by people "in the know", if someone doesn't know about Schutzhund, then they wouldn't value a Schutzhund title either right? But to someone who knows and understands what is involved in ASR, an ASR title is held in high regard. However, ASR isn't really a competitive sport, it's more of a test to test your dogs training and see if your dogs do what they are supposed to do, rather than a bragging right.
Unfortunately what Schutzhund was, and still should be. Our club tries very hard to keep things as real a possible.
 
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Bob Scott said:
Unfortunately what Schutzhund was, and still should be. Our club tries very hard to keep things as real a possible.
Bob, how was Schutzhund really like in the early days? I heard many of the previous exercises were scratched to accomodate more dogs.

Just curious....
 

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Al, my schutzhund expierience doesn't go back very far but the real long timers I've talk to have always commented about Schutzhund being a serious test of the dogs character and working abilty. That was it's original purpose, not sport.
Many top level helpers will tell about how different levels of pressure are used for club dogs, national level dogs, SV dogs, etc. If it's a test, as it should be, then all dogs should be put under the same pressures.
As in all sports, winning points is the name of the game. The comment has also been made that many of the truely tough dogs of old would/could never be high scoreing dogs by today's rules. That doesn't mean that there aren't serious dogs in the sport today. It just favors the flashy dogs more so.
Over the years, the attack out of the blind, object guard, gunfire on the sleeve and other exercises have been eiminated.
Again, I defer to the "real" oldtimes to comment on these things.
In the early 90s, the BH was initiated. One of the reasons for that was to eliminate dogs of "unstable" temperment. Although I see the good in having the BH, it was more for political correctness the a help to the dogs. It can eliminate many very serious dogs that wont allow all the social contact. How social does a true working dog have to be? This is all JMHO! Not based on tons expierience.
Hopefully, some of the 'real" oldtimers here can give more insight.......without totally trashing Schutzhund. :D :wink:
 

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Schutzhund people who are "in the know" know which judges to go to to get a title on a show dog & also who the serious judges are. Yet another reason to look at score books, rather than just looking at what people post!
 

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susan tuck said:
Schutzhund people who are "in the know" know which judges to go to to get a title on a show dog & also who the serious judges are. Yet another reason to look at score books, rather than just looking at what people post!
Even with that, I've seen some supposedly hard core judges give away titles and scores that weren't earned.
My own thoughts are that I've got to be the hardest one to please on the field.
Thats the way I did AKC for years and I hope to keep up my standards now.
 

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I have done both. I like both for different reasons. In schutzhund I like the flashy OB, I like training footstep tracking because I think it's cool, although not practical. I see it as a means to score. But ASR is the water that floats my boat. Every test in ASR is practical to the real working dog. I think it is a true test to the working dog. ASR shows what the dog can do and not so much as in schutzhund what the trainer can do.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for all the very good points! I've decided to do both, IF I can get directions to the club in SC, that is! LoL Since we really have done nothing with Jak yet, everyone I've asked has said it should not be a problem at all training for both. ASR is really what I wanted to do from the get-go, but couldn't because there wasn't a club nearby, so I'm really excited to have the opportunity to do it now!
 

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Kristine, with the tracking part, you need to teach the schutzhund tracking first. If you teach ASR tracking first you'll have trouble to get him to keep his head down for schutzhund tracking. I'll be glad to help you with this. I won't be coming up to Spartanburg this Sunday but I will get up there soon. I'm trying to get the address and when I do I'll give it to you and you can do a map search and you'll be able to go straight to their field.

Later girl
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Jerry, thanks. I did plan on training Schutzhund style tracking and obedience first. Charlotte agreed that would be best, since ASR is not really as 'strict' as Schutzhund in those two aspects. I will need some help, though. I *can* train for obedience, but I don't know how to get the flashiness that Schutzhund demands...all of my obedience training has just been for practical, everyday use. I very much appreciate any and all help I can get! I printed out the tracking articles off of Schutzhund Village, and I think I should be able to get started fairly easily, but I don't want to until I've at least talked to someone in person that has trained it and can show me exactly what all I should do and expect to see from Jak. I'm a very visual person; I can *usually* do okay with written directions as long as they are detailed, but I'd rather be shown in person.

I'm trying to get the address and when I do I'll give it to you and you can do a map search and you'll be able to go straight to their field.
That's all I need and I'll be there! :D
 

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I've seen it too Bob, but that applies to all judged sports, canine or otherwise! Schutzhund was originally a breed test for GSD's. Now it's just another sport, which I think is great, because not everybody is a serious breeder (or should be!) At least in sch, the judge gives a critique. Many may argue about soft judges, hard judges, unfair scores, etc.. At the end of the day, it is as you said Bob, how you feel abut your own performance, and for most of us, (not speaking of the breeders or professionals here), training is just a great way to do something fun with the dog!
 
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