[Mike Schoonbrood]

I'm not a cat person, but I love playing with other peoples kittens/young cats.... the biting n scratching n being a lil tempremental demon.... having a pup like Lÿka reminds me very much of a cat, but sharper teeth, more force in her bite and more tempremental LOL. She plays like a cat, runs around like a cat, moves like a cat, n has lotsa cat-like behaviors. At first I thought they accidentally sent me a brindle cat that swallowed a bird to make the funny bird-like noises she can make, but then it occured to me... my pup is bred to have exagerated natural tendencies, more wild-animal-like qualities that have been bred out of the calmer lower drive pet-like dogs. So the thought occured to me.... finding a dog with the qualities my pup displays is somewhat challenging, it's more prevailant in some breeds, but on the whole, you can't go and get a poodle or an american line GSD that behaves the way she does very easily, if at all, you need to specifically go to a good breeder that aims for these qualities and even then sometimes its hit or miss. But cats on the other hand... it's very easy to find a cat who has very high hunting/prey drives with lots of desire to chase mice, play rough and be very independant hunting creatures with great agility.

If you compare the ease of finding these qualities in a cat vs. a dog, to me it suggests that cats have maintained their natural abilities and drives much better over the generations than dogs have, which would indicate that cats are better bred than dogs.

Does this logic make sense? Is the average cat indeed better bred than the average dog?

 

[Mike Russell]

If cats are so superior, then why can't they do things on command (whether verbal or physcial cues) like dogs can?

It's not a matter of being "better bred", they are different species with different uses. Dogs help man out in a variety of jobs, cats clean up vermin. The dog is more versatile and more useful.

Also, you were right (or close to right) that the dog was bred with over exaggeration in some qualities, but that does not make them more like the wild type (actually, they are quite the opposite). If you want to see proper application of wild type drives in canines, watch videos of African Wild Dogs (which have very little in common with our current sport/working dogs).

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

I wasn't meaning that cats are superior animals, but I was suggesting that maybe they retain their natural instincts and abilities better than the average dog in their breeding. Dogs have a far greater purpose than a cat, that's why I don't really care for cats... feed a cat and they think they are god, feed a dog and they think you're god... cats are arrogant creatures... but their natural instincts and drives have been better retained throughout the generations than dogs... some dogs have barely enough drive to get up and go to a food bowl, in the wild these dogs would be dead, but the average cat still has the ability to hunt and survive on their own thru hunting and scavenging.

But no, cats are not superior, but perhaps the breeding has maintained their intended purpose, whereas many a american line GSD has been bred to be a couch potato lol. I've seen an american line GSD do very nice bitework tho so I can't knock them all...

 

[Stacia Porter]

I'm not a cat person, but I love playing with other peoples kittens/young cats.... the biting n scratching n being a lil tempremental demon.... having a pup like Lÿka reminds me very much of a cat, but sharper teeth, more force in her bite and more tempremental LOL. She plays like a cat, runs around like a cat, moves like a cat, n has lotsa cat-like behaviors. At first I thought they accidentally sent me a brindle cat that swallowed a bird to make the funny bird-like noises she can make, but then it occured to me... my pup is bred to have exagerated natural tendencies, more wild-animal-like qualities that have been bred out of the calmer lower drive pet-like dogs. So the thought occured to me.... finding a dog with the qualities my pup displays is somewhat challenging, it's more prevailant in some breeds, but on the whole, you can't go and get a poodle or an american line GSD that behaves the way she does very easily, if at all, you need to specifically go to a good breeder that aims for these qualities and even then sometimes its hit or miss. But cats on the other hand... it's very easy to find a cat who has very high hunting/prey drives with lots of desire to chase mice, play rough and be very independant hunting creatures with great agility.

If you compare the ease of finding these qualities in a cat vs. a dog, to me it suggests that cats have maintained their natural abilities and drives much better over the generations than dogs have, which would indicate that cats are better bred than dogs.

Does this logic make sense? Is the average cat indeed better bred than the average dog?

I had these exact same thoughts when I brought my GSD puppy home. I also had a little tiny rescued ferral German barn cat who was about 6 months old when we brought him home. Her prey drive was outta this world!!! I swear to goodness that the reason Achilles had such a high prey drive and took to the sleeve so well was b/c of that cat. She and he chased around my house constantly. She saw him as prey, he saw her as prey. It was a mutual relationship LOL.

Ever since we gave her to my uncle he hasn't been as prey-driven.

There are actually breeds of cat htat have this bred out of them. We were looking at some for my 5 yo dd. They're called Ragdoll cats adn havec next to no prey drive, go limp in your arms when you pick them up, and rarely defend themselves. There are satlellite breeds being established from the Ragdoll, lke the Ragamuffin, and they're very, very popular.

I think the issue here is that the average pet owner wants a docile love bug of a pet, not a prey monster glued to his/her pantsleg all the time.

BTW I looked at your vidoes of Lyka and she is a little alligator!! Congrats.

 

[Tim Martens]

i think you're right mike. i do think they are better bred. why? how many ferral dogs have you seen? i'll tell you how many i've seen. ZERO. cats breeding for the most part is still a fairly natural thing. i believe the amount of "show cats" is a minimal percentage of the overall cat population in comparison to the "show dogs" percentage. even pet wise. when a dog who is a pet "accidentally" gets pregnant, it is from whatever male the owner happens to have. with cats, they are mobile. they have their choice of suitors and thus a much higher percentage of natural selection occurs in cat breedings.

it's hard to type for me right now. does this make any sense?

 

[Bob Scott]

Ditto! Their breeding hasn't been controlled in the same way dogs have. Nobody has (for the most part) selected them for anything other then being a cat. With so many of them runnig free, it's almost been natural selection, and these "natural" breedings have been to the Tom that's proven his worth.
As far as which is smarter!? That's apples and oranges. Dogs are more social, therefore, more responsive in a group setting. Ask most cats to "come" and they flip their tail like the're flipping you the bird. "Maybe later"!

 

[Stacia Porter]

Ditto! Their breeding hasn't been controlled in the same way dogs have. Nobody has (for the most part) selected them for anything other then being a cat. With so many of them runnig free, it's almost been natural selection, and these "natural" breedings have been to the Tom that's proven his worth.
As far as which is smarter!? That's apples and oranges. Dogs are more social, therefore, more responsive in a group setting. Ask most cats to "come" and they flip their tail like the're flipping you the bird. "Maybe later"!

Actually, this isn't entirely true. There are many, many, many recognized cat breeds and people do in fact actively breed and select for traits (and show) their cats. Now it is notable that Domestic Short Hair is a certified "breed" for cats while "Heinz 57" isn't sufficient on vet records :lol: . And if anyone's interested in uselss kitty knowledg, a purebred kitty from good lines will run you about $700 for pet quality!!!!!

I prefer my dogs if truth be told. I once read a quip that summed it all up pretty well:

Dogs have masters. Cats have staff.

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

I see a lot of retarded cats. Maybe it's the altitude, or the fact that I want to kick them off cliffs. :twisted: :twisted:

In general, cats don't make it in the wild so well. I have a friend that is always looking for barn cats. Why??? because the coyotes and the owls snack on them constantly. I always feel bad(NOT) when I take a feral cat or ten down there. It doesn't take long for there to be none. So unless you are going to let a bunch of dogs go in the wild, I don't see the comparison. Besides, cats are just dog food on the paw to me.

Some states they are considering/or have made legal the shooting of feral cats. SWEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTT!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: Man I hate cats.



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[Sarah Hall]

If cats are so superior, then why can't they do things on command (whether verbal or physcial cues) like dogs can

I can teach cats to sit, lay down, stay, etc... is that bad?
I've got a cat (and a dog) I've trained in the Pets Ahoy show at Sea World Orlando. You just have to get into a TOTALLY different frame of mind. Cats are selfish beings interested in ONLY what pleases THEM at that moment. :roll:

Actually, this isn't entirely true. There are many, many, many recognized cat breeds and people do in fact actively breed and select for traits (and show) their cats. Now it is notable that Domestic Short Hair is a certified "breed" for cats while "Heinz 57" isn't sufficient on vet records . And if anyone's interested in uselss kitty knowledg, a purebred kitty from good lines will run you about $700 for pet quality!!!!!

There are very distinguished breeds of cats, think: Siamese, Himalayan, Exotic Shorthair. These cats are very carefully bred and raised. If you want to compare apples to oranges, cats have actually not been as over-bred and drastically changed in their overall appearance and their ability to function as some canines. True, there is the genetically altered "Munchkin" cat, a dwarf cat, however there is no severely angulated and overall disproportionate cats in the cat show ring besides.
$700 for a purebred kitty is pretty cheap, depending on the breed, I knew someone who bred Egyptian Maus and those kittens ran for $1500-3000!! It's strange to think a top of the line working GSD is the same price as a *^@&$% cat!!! :evil:

Edited to say: P.S.- I own two cats of my own, but these are the Heinz 57 mutt kitties I got from a local rescue.

 

[Stacia Porter]

I know someone who had a ginger maine **** who could do all the same tricks as her dog. This cat did sit, down, stay, speak, roll over, and it retreived. However, I couldn't even train my DSH to keep her claws out of the furniture. She loved water, so the spray bottle had no effect, she'd just dig your arm if you tried to redirect, and when you made loud noises (by mouth or with a can full of coins) she'd either yawn or stare at you like, "Is that supposed to do something?"

Show quality purebred kitties can be majorly expensive! When I was looking in the $700-800 range that was for a purebred pet quality Ragdoll with spay/neuter contact and limited registration!! Purebred cats are comparable in top of the line GSD's (and some are even more costly then your average GSD). I really couldn't fathom paying that much for a Mau. Then again I can't fathom paying that much for a Chinese Crested dog, either...

I really do want that darn Ragdoll, but right now I think Achilles would just eat it. A cat that runs but won't defend itself? That'd just make his millenium...

 

[Guest]

I don't see why we're even comparing cats to dogs. Cats are a totally different carnivore. They're solitary hunters for the most part, and while they have some rank structure among themselves (lions, tigers, etc.) it's not comparable to a pack of wolves.

I guess I must be weirder than I thought; I only have one cat that won't come when called. My cats' "come" is much more reliable than my small dog's . How they survive in the wild depends on a lot of factors. Of course, they're lower on the food chain than, say, a coyote, but there are plenty who live long lives all on their own.

Kind of a sidenote pertaining to feral cats-There was a study done on cats and reproduction; one group was fed raw and one was fed cat food. Within 4 generations, the group fed cat food was unable to reproduce. So, it's absolutely true that the cats out on their own, hunting the food that nature intended them to eat, fare better healthwise than the goofy cats we're breeding for looks and ridiculous traits. I think this definitely has an impact on the preception that cats are consistently "drivier" than some dogs.

I think it's safe to say most of us are much more likely to have a second generation feral cat than a second generation wild dog. Of my own cats, my female was a stray the first 5 or so years of her life. She disappeared for 1.5mos one time and came back the perfect weight, gorgeous coat, healthy ears; she left a little pudgy, slightly greasy coat, and w/a terrible ear infection. She'd been eating rabbits living under a shed. The family thanked her profusely for helping them grow petunias :wink: . My males were both strays found as tiny kittens. They are a little more affectionate and come when I call them, but still like to go on killing sprees :twisted: .

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but I think if we keep breeding cats the way we do for show, it won't be much longer until we have the same problems we do with dogs now.

 

[Bob Scott]

Staicia, I agree, it's not entirely true. Thus the (for the most part).
I doubt any of the show type cats are going to be roaming the streets.
I don't dislike cats, but I doubt my hunting terriers would allow any in the yard. Fact is, I know they wont.

 

[Mike Schoonbrood]

I'm not comparing cats to dogs, I'm comparing the quality of breeding in regards to maintaining natural instincts and drives. It takes effort to find a dog that can do things well that a dog should naturally be able to do, but you can walk into any alley n pick up a cat who'll more than likely do what nature intended for them to do.

Maybe it's a stupid topic, or maybe people just don't get what I meant. Heck I could be talking about Mice or Rabbits vs. dogs... does the average rabbit do what nature intended? Or are they as useless as the average mutt when it comes to fending for themselves? My GSD won't touch raw chicken, he'd die if he had to catch his own food in the wild, but cats seem to fend for themselves pretty well, as do all the bunnies that hop around my yard. I'm just suggesting that maybe some of our human intervention in the breeding of animals has maybe weakened entire species due to carelessness or striving for traits that go against nature. Mountain goats that can't climb mountains fall to their death, so surefootedness is naturally selected as a breeding trait.

 

[Stacia Porter]

I'm not comparing cats to dogs, I'm comparing the quality of breeding in regards to maintaining natural instincts and drives. It takes effort to find a dog that can do things well that a dog should naturally be able to do, but you can walk into any alley n pick up a cat who'll more than likely do what nature intended for them to do.

Maybe it's a stupid topic, or maybe people just don't get what I meant. Heck I could be talking about Mice or Rabbits vs. dogs... does the average rabbit do what nature intended? Or are they as useless as the average mutt when it comes to fending for themselves? My GSD won't touch raw chicken, he'd die if he had to catch his own food in the wild, but cats seem to fend for themselves pretty well, as do all the bunnies that hop around my yard. I'm just suggesting that maybe some of our human intervention in the breeding of animals has maybe weakened entire species due to carelessness or striving for traits that go against nature. Mountain goats that can't climb mountains fall to their death, so surefootedness is naturally selected as a breeding trait.

I get on this kick when I start thinking about the dog breeds that *require* Cesarean births due their human-selected face shapes (bull breeds, pugs). It floors me that we have taken teh dog so far beyond its natural form that it can't even be BORN properly...

I think the issue is one of public fear. People have bred out the natural huting abilities of most breeds of dog (not all, mind you) from the simple fear that one day Fido would be standing over them ready to eat their faces off. No one is quite as afraid of Tommy Kitty in the ally as they are of the 75 lb GSD (nor are they afraid, apparently, of teh smaller breeds). In fact, I had a tantrum about this very thing the other day on another board b/c an owner posted about a Bichon with aggressive tendencies that a rescue asked her to take and she said she just couldn't "see" how a Bichon could be aggressive, and then added that her Bichon (I think it's a Bichon, might be another similiar breed) bites her when she tries to move her bed. No one thinks much of that...unless I replace "bichon" with "pit bull." THen it's a problem. Adn we've all seen that America's Funniest Home Videos segment where the poodle (or some other small dog) won't let hte husband near the wife -- that's funny right? What if I replaced that poodle with a malinois? No one would laugh...

Okay, so I've just taken a really long time to say that I think the reason most dogs are bred to be docile has to do with people being afraid that if they're not they wont' be able to conrol them. Cats dont' pose that sort of hazard to humanity. Also, dogs are good for work and as such human naturally selected for those canines who showed the most willingness to co-exist with humans...perhaps those were the animals also least likely to fend for themselves in teh wild?

Bob, gotta love terriers. I grew up with dachshunds and I swear they're meaner than shepherds...

 

[Guest]

I ended up in the hospital thanks to a cat bite :lol: . Damn expensive lesson that I didn't learn. :wink:

I get ya, Mike. I think it's a classic case of natural selection.

Stacia, interesting point. I have this argument about bulldogs w/my dad whose friend breeds them. Why breed something that would die if it ran away pregnant and couldn't get a c-section in time? How f'ing stupid are we, people? My peke actually comes from lines that can <gasp> give birth unassisted. I think it's criminal to create animals that are so ill-equipped to accomplish basic life skills-like breathing and giving birth.

 

[Stacia Porter]

I ended up in the hospital thanks to a cat bite :lol: . Damn expensive lesson that I didn't learn. :wink:

I get ya, Mike. I think it's a classic case of natural selection.

Stacia, interesting point. I have this argument about bulldogs w/my dad whose friend breeds them. Why breed something that would die if it ran away pregnant and couldn't get a c-section in time? How f'ing stupid are we, people? My peke actually comes from lines that can <gasp> give birth unassisted. I think it's criminal to create animals that are so ill-equipped to accomplish basic life skills-like breathing and giving birth.

OMG you mean they still have lines that can birth unassisted?????????? I know it bothers me more than others b/c of my association to human birtihng matters, but I have this tendency to wrinkle my nose and shake my head when I read bully/pug/pekinese breeders talking about teh sections like it's a perfectly natural thing to do to a dog.

I do have a really good question, though, since you're a good researcher and have one of the flat faced breeds: do the bitches have any lactation issues after their sections? I.e. loss of milk supply, inability to feed puppies due to cesarean scar, horomonal issues? Also, do hte pups have lung problems (fluid in the lungs) from not being born vaginally? And how often does it occur that pups are taken too early b/c of the scheduling factor? Thanks :wink:

FWIW, my brother owns both a pug and an English bulldog. His house is one big old snore fest at night...