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I try and train using motivational methods but clearly there needs to be some consequence for my dog when he does things that are just plain wrong. I use a conditioned negative punisher ( a verbal command that effectively means "what you are doing or about to do isn't going to be rewarding") and this is generally effective at stopping most unwanted behaviour but it has its limitations. It's called a quitting signal in some circles.

Does anyone else use one? I am interested in how you set it up, how you use it and how effective you find it.
 

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Check out Fanny Gott (Sweden). She sometimes uses a taunting kackle and shows the dog what they missed out on. She does this elegantly and without stressing the dog too much. There are lots of other reasons to check her out too http://www.fannygott.com
 

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For me, negative punishment is taking away the opportunity to earn reward. For one dog in my group who is highly independent, we end the session and put her up and she is aware that other dogs are working--particularly those of her own pack. Amazing how she changes when you get her back out. For my young dogs, I actually conditioned a verbal punisher when they were puppies. My growly "no" means stop what you are doing NOW. Its a correction. I did train a dog that had a "try again" signal that was not a correction. He would offer me a different behavior. He had no idea what a punisher was. This was an experiment of mine with that type of dog. But he is also a different type of dog [genetically biddable and not independent--lives for approval].

T
 

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yes i do in particular obedience but when a lot of drive is being used with a strong dog i find it not as strong or doesnt reinforce the negative enough also most of teh studies done between remotes prongs and quitting signals also showed when needed in emergency or where strong aggression or drives were in play it had a very small success.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Check out Fanny Gott (Sweden). She sometimes uses a taunting kackle and shows the dog what they missed out on. She does this elegantly and without stressing the dog too much. There are lots of other reasons to check her out too http://www.fannygott.com
I couldn't find anything about her taunting kackle but I like the way she makes good use of rewards with her dog and the in season bitch.
 

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For me, negative punishment is taking away the opportunity to earn reward. For one dog in my group who is highly independent, we end the session and put her up and she is aware that other dogs are working--particularly those of her own pack. Amazing how she changes when you get her back out.

T
That's the principle i'm talking about. Do you give any verbal signal before putting her away? If you do, can you use this to interupt other unwanted behaviour?

I guess it's the same as the warning I give the kids before I put them in time out or switch the tv off. Quit or else!
 

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That's the principle i'm talking about. Do you give any verbal signal before putting her away? If you do, can you use this to interupt other unwanted behaviour?

I guess it's the same as the warning I give the kids before I put them in time out or switch the tv off. Quit or else!
Its mostly when I sense a dog is in refusal. I give a couple of chances and then just put them up. I don't have a word of warning. Just put them up. Works even best if I get another dog. This is with trained dogs that are obviously saying "screw you" to the handler about the work.
 

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As an example, I went out with my chore dog one day to move my ducks to from their home pen to the working pen--through the smaller yard into the larger, negotiating a couple of gates. This is something my chore dog did daily and could probably do in her sleep. She was all over the place--no focus. I even tried making it easier. Finally it dawned on me that she was just screwing around. I called her out of the gate, closed it and left her standing there while I went in the house and closed the door. The next time I went out, she had them out and where I needed them in a couple of minutes and me needing to give little direction.

Was working with another dog/handler team the other nice on the place command. Dog mentally all over the place because stock was nearby. Wouldn't focus on the task at hand. I had her put her up. When she brought her back, she was all focus and operant, [i.e. what can I do for you].

T
 

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can you provide some examples in psd work where you use your quitting signal ?
...i'm having a hard time visualizing what "just plain wrong" means and whether you are talking about failure to respond to a trained command or unsolicited bad behavior that you consider "wrong" that you want to preempt
 

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For me, no is used more around the house. Pet stuff. No, dont pick up the kids toy or grab the empty water bottle (which she loves to chew) etc.

When training obedience nope is my negative marker. (I use marker training) so I say, sit. (She knows sit. Shes not thinking, too excited, whatever) She downs. I say nope, she doesn't get a reward. I'll back up or move, and re do it. Sit. She sits. Yes! Reward. Never used it for bite work but I have very little experience there.


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And back to thread .....

For me, no is used more around the house. Pet stuff. No, dont pick up the kids toy or grab the empty water bottle (which she loves to chew) etc.

When training obedience nope is my negative marker. (I use marker training) so I say, sit. (She knows sit. Shes not thinking, too excited, whatever) She downs. I say nope, she doesn't get a reward. I'll back up or move, and re do it. Sit. She sits. Yes! Reward. Never used it for bite work but I have very little experience there.


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Discussion Starter #15
can you provide some examples in psd work where you use your quitting signal ?
...i'm having a hard time visualizing what "just plain wrong" means and whether you are talking about failure to respond to a trained command or unsolicited bad behavior that you consider "wrong" that you want to preempt
I use it to try and prevent the dog from doing something outside the rules or for not carrying out a well known command. For example my rules around the van are that if I open the dog cage without saying anything the dog is free to get out or not (although I don't recall him ever not getting out). If however I tell him to "wait" (i've rewarded this command and built up distractions and temptations and I consider this to be a well known command) and he starts to come out I give the quitting signal which is usually enough to stop him depending how quick I respond. If I am a bit slower then I will block his exit and if I am really slow then I would immediately get him back in the van. I wait a while and try again. Success will buy his freedom.

I use it consistently across all commands and all rules. Saying it stops almost everything now because I have consistently made sure that having said it, whatever he was going to do doesn't get rewarded in any way.

Does that make any sense?:-?
 

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I use it to try and prevent the dog from doing something outside the rules or for not carrying out a well known command. For example my rules around the van are that if I open the dog cage without saying anything the dog is free to get out or not (although I don't recall him ever not getting out). If however I tell him to "wait" (i've rewarded this command and built up distractions and temptations and I consider this to be a well known command) and he starts to come out I give the quitting signal which is usually enough to stop him depending how quick I respond. If I am a bit slower then I will block his exit and if I am really slow then I would immediately get him back in the van. I wait a while and try again. Success will buy his freedom.

I use it consistently across all commands and all rules. Saying it stops almost everything now because I have consistently made sure that having said it, whatever he was going to do doesn't get rewarded in any way.

Does that make any sense?:-?
other examples?

to me that is the same as me saying NO, as a verbal correction and/or verbal marker for physical correction for the dog not complying with the wait command, which I picture differently in my head than what I thought a quitting signal was..

I guess now we should define quitting signal please.



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Discussion Starter #18
other examples?

to me that is the same as me saying NO, as a verbal correction and/or verbal marker for physical correction for the dog not complying with the wait command, which I picture differently in my head than what I thought a quitting signal was..

I guess now we should define quitting signal please.
It's a quitting signal because it is a conditioned negative punisher. The sound, in my case "agghh" preceedes the withdrawal of the expected reward/reinforcer. Started initially by holding out food, when the dog goes to take it "agghh" and food removed. Eventually the dog learns that when he hears the sound the behaviour he is doing or about to do if you get in quick enough, isn't going to be rewarding and he quits.

It is never accompanied or followed by P+ and it isn't a threat although being human it tends to express my emotional state. It is just information telling the dog it won't find that behaviour rewarding. Used consistently the dog should learn that there is no point continuing.

Another example would be the rules around biting. The rules I have tried to set up are that the dog can bite when commanded to, when he's attacked or when i'm attacked. I set those scenarios up and reward him for correct behaviour. Once he knows the rules the quitting signal is used for any attempts to bite outside those rules. For instance if he self deployed after a jogger the quitting signal would stop that behaviour. It is also responsible for making the rules I guess becauase it shows the dog the consequences of stepping outside the rules.

I'm going training now so i'll try and get some video. A picture paints a thousand words and all that.
 

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It's a quitting signal because it is a conditioned negative punisher. The sound, in my case "agghh" preceedes the withdrawal of the expected reward/reinforcer. Started initially by holding out food, when the dog goes to take it "agghh" and food removed. Eventually the dog learns that when he hears the sound the behaviour he is doing or about to do if you get in quick enough, isn't going to be rewarding and he quits.

It is never accompanied or followed by P+ and it isn't a threat although being human it tends to express my emotional state. It is just information telling the dog it won't find that behaviour rewarding. Used consistently the dog should learn that there is no point continuing.

Another example would be the rules around biting. The rules I have tried to set up are that the dog can bite when commanded to, when he's attacked or when i'm attacked. I set those scenarios up and reward him for correct behaviour. Once he knows the rules the quitting signal is used for any attempts to bite outside those rules. For instance if he self deployed after a jogger the quitting signal would stop that behaviour. It is also responsible for making the rules I guess becauase it shows the dog the consequences of stepping outside the rules.

I'm going training now so i'll try and get some video. A picture paints a thousand words and all that.
gotcha.. do you follow that up with an immediate command to do something else?

is your quitting signal the same for every situation, would it be the same for getting out of the crate, and also for trying to bite someone he shouldnt? is it a common word?



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gotcha.. do you follow that up with an immediate command to do something else?

is your quitting signal the same for every situation, would it be the same for getting out of the crate, and also for trying to bite someone he shouldnt? is it a common word?
Yes, it's the same signal/word across the board. Sometimes I will give another command to control the situation and other times just stopping that behaviour is sufficient. The important thing is that having said it, I never let the dog get rewarded if he doesn't stop.

We were busy on other things today but I will have a look and see if there is anything in my archive.
 
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