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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Did anyone watch the "Portland City Classic" Eukanuba dog show last night? If so, I hope you experienced GSD people noticed what I did about the GSD named "Sara". Obviously, this dog had the angulation that has been making all working GSD people sigh in disapproval, but the thing that REALLY got me was the gait. This dog ran and put it's HOCKS down! It also was terribly cross-tracking! Then, a little over halfway through, the dog tripped on it's own akward feet! Also, I saw it trip again in the background after the gaiting. Then, the judge pulled this dog out for the final approval!! This really showed where this breed is going in AKC.
Sorry, just had to rant. :|
 

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Breeding those types of dogs is animal cruelty.They cant travel normally and we all know they could never work.Those dogs are genetically weak,physically and mentally.They are not German Shepherd's Dogs.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
At a small breed show a few years ago I actually did argue with the judge who didn't pick a REAL GSD, but instead picked the overangulated horror for BIS. I asked how the dog could work, if it could work. He said basically what I expected: the dog that won BIS matched the current trend for the perfect shepherd and exhibited conformation closest to the AKC standard. The judge then walked away when I commented the BIS dog's hind feet hit his front feet, and that the dog would never last in any sort of work except gaiting around a little ring every week or so.
And, I'm sure everyone has noticed, it's not just the GSD that is being corrupted by the AKC. It's Labs, Malinois, Rotties, Goldens, Chessies,
Here's a reality check for everyone that tries to turn a blind eye to the issue:
Here is the official AKC image for the GSD:

And here is a top-winning AKC foundation bitch:


Here is the GSD as used in 1898:


Here are two '95 SGRs, first is working, second is show:


Last, here's an AKC Champ Lab (everyone has seen a REAL Lab) notice how FAT this champ is!!
 

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This may not be everyone's favorite look , but I bet it could work! :lol:



Greg
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
She's bad, but at least she wasn't put down at the age of 6. In my time working as a vet tech, I saw many of the terrible consequences of owning an over-angulated dog, but the worst I saw was a GIANT American Shepherd by the name of Noah. The dog came in with rear leg weakness and shaking. We did x-rays to look at the hips and found out not only did he have SEVERE hip dysplasia, but that his spine was actually separating from his pelvis! The severe angulation breeding is now causing this to happen to many dogs!
The angulation (as most people know) is caused by an unnatural tilt in the pelvis, causing a weak spot. Not only does this disrupt the pelvic region, but the entire dog is affected.
Here are some drawings to illustrate what I mean:
Pelvis:

The first is a normal pelvis, notice the subtle slope. The second is an over-angulated pelvis, popular in our Am. Shepherds. Notice how the slope is much more dramatic.

Gait:

The first is a normal, healthy, mile-eating gait. The second is the jarring gait resulting from over-angulation of the pelvis. Notice how the over-angulation of the pelvis also causes the dog's forelimbs to sort of hyperextend. This means extra energy is being burned. Obviously the American Dog would never win an endurance test against the German Dog.
There are always some exceptions to the rule, I've seen great American bred dogs with almost no angulation, and have seen ugly roach-backed German bred dogs. But the point I'm trying to emphasize is: no matter the background or how "pretty" some thinks they are, angulation needs to be fixed NOW in Am. Shepherds before all of them develop the severe spinal conditions of Noah.
 

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It looks like it would hurt the dog just to walk! I can't believe these dogs get good enough ratings from the OFA to keep breeding them. Theres no way that any of these dogs hips should ever be rated higher than a REAL GSD. Im not a breeder or a vet but it seems to me that these dogs hips would give them problems and not be as strong as a working GSDs hips, especially in an older dog. Of course this is just my opinion, you all may disagree.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Most of the time, the AKC dogs aren't even required to be OFA'd to be bred, those that are OFA'd are usually less severe in the angulation. Mainly, though, the angulation is of the pelvis and the hip is acually correct to standards. Plus, if you notice the OFA process isn't always correct on judging the correctness of a dog's hips. PennHip is much better, IMO.
 

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Now I see!

So, I take it that the more severe the angulation of the pelvis is the more unhealthy and in pain the dog is in. I just don't understand why people want to breed dogs to this point, but it seems like the judges like them. Thats just not my style. Im into the more traditional and upright GSD.
 

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Just have a small question: which two dogs do you have in the side by side photos from 1995? Is it G Agbar Bethme and VA1 Ulk von Arlett?

As for the lab, it's not fat. It's stout, which is exactly what you see in European bred labradors of all colors. I had never seen the tall and skinny labs until I went to the US.

As for angulation: bad for the breed. So is breeding "large" shepherds, breeding only for color (i.e. the "specialty" whites, blues, blacks, silver/black etc), breeding only for drive, and breeding only for conformation. I do agree with the notion that breeding severely angulated AKC dogs is abusive. It is unethical when a dog's quality of life is affected by bad breeding practices.

And the fact that there are no specific standards of breeding GSD's in the US, as there are through the SV, only makes the pight of the German shepherd dog worse. I cannot tell you how many people show me their "purebred" AKC shepherd only for me to think, "Ummm, WTH is THAT thing?" It amounts to two people (or one) owning an AKC registered female and an AKC registered male "GSD" and breeding them with no regard to genetics or any other factora nd then people spending a great deal of money on these AKC dogs just b/c they come with "papers." There is a serious lack of understanding in the US about the breeding process and the effects indiscrimnate breeding can have on the resulting puppies. I can't tell you how often I describe the SV regulations for breeding and get a response such as, "WELL, I wouldn't let THEM tell ME what dog I could and couldn't breed!" I just shake my head...
 

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I just don't understand how that look and that gait became appealing. It's disturbing to me, because those dogs look handicapped. I guess they are. But breeding in such a severe physical deformity is weird to me and even more bizarre given the context and history and objectives of the GSD breed. It's like foot-binding for dogs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_binding
 

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While I do realize that labradors in other countries look much different than labradors in the US, that lab does look fat to me. There is no "tummy tuck" at all on that dog. Yes, a lab should be somewhat stocky and not long and lanky like many are nowadays; but the belly of the dog should not be perpendicular to the ground, as that dog's is. There should be a slight tucking up of the tummy at the rear legs. Even its head looks slightly too small for the rest of its body (to me).

This dog is more of what I think of when I think of a lab:



Here's another:




Both are still stocky, but not overly thick. JMO
 

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Greg Long said:


This may not be everyone's favorite look , but I bet it could work! :lol:



Greg
now that's a working dog. even the german "working lines" have angulation. the dog in that pic has a STRAIGHT back. nice to see...

as far as that hideous looking bitch, i don't think it's as bad as it looks. it looks pretty stretched out for the "show stack". when it stands normally, i'd be willing to bet it doesn't look that bad. at least i hope not...
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
As far as the "English"-style Lab, remeber the whole disagreement between American Shepherds and GERMAN shepherds! I am discussing the functionality of a particular animal as compared to another. The functionality to perform the origional task it was bred for. A stocky, unneccesarily heavy Lab wouldn't be best suited for it's origional task of retrieving fish from nets, or even today's task of retrieving ducks shot by hunters. All of the working Labs I've ever come across are the longer-legged version (the yellow lab above).
I didn't save my pictures correctly of the 95 dogs, so I have no clue. I did, however find some interesting pics of GSDs showing how these German dogs have changed (remember, show style has changed as well)
1966 VA7 - Duesseldorf and 1967 Sieger - Mannheim
Bodo v Lierberg
VA '97/'98 German/USA Sieger Lasso v. Neuen Berg SchH 3, KKL1a

Here is an interesting article e-mailed to me from a friend:
http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/american vrs german.htm
It's an American show breeder of GSDs attacking GERMAN bred dogs.

Anyways, thought this would be a little interesting!
 

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Wow. I started reading that article and got mad right off the bat, but then I decided to keep going. This lady is not talking about working dogs, but German show dogs. I have no idea what a German dog show is like (Stacia maybe can give us some insight?), so I can't comment on that, but I do agree with many of the things this lady said about the German show line dogs that have the roached back and splayed feet. She still doesn't have me convinced that American show dogs are any better, though.
 

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I did read the article, and I first must say that the competition in question was held in Mexico, not Germany, so that might affect the experience. Also, we have no clue which German judges were present.

Personally, I'd take a roach backed German show line dog long before I'd take the poorly bred, over angulated Ambred GSD. But that is a personal opinion, and I'd like to make it clear that I'm not a fan of the banana back and splayed feet, either. My dog DOES have a sloping croup, and I think it's important to distinguish between a true roached back and a sloped croup (and I'm not sure if the author of that article knows the difference). There are dogs who don't look good, IMO, who have been VA rated, and some of it does bother me.d I won't disagree with the notion that the SV has been headed in the wrong direction on conformation for a while -- but I refuse to believe that the proper GSD is the Ambred one. Not a chance.

I did find it odd that she went on and on about health problems in German show lines due to "angulation"; IME, it's not the German dogs who have issues with angulation, but rather the American ones. As for the temperment: I've never seen show lines nipping at one another in the ring. Show lines are a bit more prone to dog aggression, and there could have been several factors working together to produce what the author witnessed. I really can't say...I can tell you my personal show line pooch does have some issues with barking and hackling at other dogs. However, Germans tend to find this behavior normal for a dog.

I also found it remarkable that the author was upset about the "lack of pigment." The bitch she showed pictures of looked sable to me (again, I could be wrong) and the last time I checked that was still an acceptable color of GSD. The dog doesn't have to have a saddle to conform to the standard, or be mostly black. In fact, the only thing, if I remember correctly, that must be black is the bulb of the nose (please correct me if I have that wrong).

So all in all it seems to me teh ranting of an upset Amshow breeder whose dog didnt' get the attention she was hoping for at hte show. I could be wrong.

Bado IS an excellent looking animal!
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