[Woody Taylor]

http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=2878

Putting this up for discussion and to amuse our European folks.

 

[Sarah Hall]

I applaud New York's bill proposal!!
IMO I think a dog looks better the way it was born. Yes, a Dobie may look like a hound, to some, without it's tail docked and it's ears cropped, but I like the look. The public won't immediately think "dangerous animal" they'll think "AWWWW!" Same goes, IMO, with Pitbulls (AmStaffs,etc), Boxers, Schnauzers, Beaucerons, etc. I just think they look cuter without all the docking and cropping going on..

 

[Kristen Cabe]

I crossposted this to some other (pet) groups I belong to, with your logic, Sarah, and pushed them to contact their representatives to vote FOR the bill instead of against it, as the AKC would like everyone to do.

"Natural" dobies are adorable! Here are a couple from our SchH club, and a rottie, too:

 

[Selena van Leeuwen]

Taildocking is here forbidden since (I believe) 1999 and earcropping since 2002... Only for medical reasons and you can´t enter any kind of trial..

 

[Sarah Hall]

Read this, taken from AKC's Mission Statement page:
AKC's Core Values:
We love purebred dogs
We are committed to advancing the sport of the purebred dog
We are dedicated to maintaining the integrity of our Registry
We protect the health and well-being of all dogs
We cherish dogs as companions
We are committed to the interests of dog owners
We uphold high standards for the administration and operation of the AKC
We recognize the critical importance of our clubs and volunteers

Those statements I made bold show why the AKC shouldn't CARE about banning docking/cropping! Sounds like SOMEONE on their board doesn't even know their own "Core Values"!

 

[Bob Scott]

I really don't understand the anti docking/cropping folks. These are some of the same people that push for spay/nueter. Tell me which is more invasive? A tail/ear or nuts/uterus? Given a choice, I don't think having the tips of my ears cut off is all that scary. I never was real pretty anyway. On the other hand 8-[ .
The Presa pup I'm training just had her ears done last Thursday. She has shown absolutely NO signs of missing them or feeling pain.
I might add that two of my three dogs are spayed/nuetered. I've read to much against it to ever do again.
Sorry, but a Dobe with natural ears and tail looks like a B&T coonhound with an ear crop. JMHO! :wink:

 

[Woody Taylor]

I really don't understand the anti docking/cropping folks. These are some of the same people that push for spay/nueter. Tell me which is more invasive? A tail/ear or nuts/uterus? Given a choice, I don't think having the tips of my ears cut off is all that scary. I never was real pretty anyway. On the other hand 8-[ .
The Presa pup I'm training just had her ears done last Thursday. She has shown absolutely NO signs of missing them or feeling pain.
I might add that two of my three dogs are spayed/nuetered. I've read to much against it to ever do again.
Sorry, but a Dobe with natural ears and tail looks like a B&T coonhound with an ear crop. JMHO! :wink:

I'll be the first to admit that a Dobe with natural ears is not the most regal animal you'd ever see...that's the funny part about all of this to me. IMO, it boils down to, in a lot of cases, what people thinks makes an animal looks appealing and what they perceive the animal does/does not miss.

Although...tail docking is another thing altogether, right? Doesn't that cause pain?

 

[Bob Scott]

Yes. crop/dock is all about visual perception just as spay/neuter is all about convience for the owner. I know! Both generalizations, but more the norm then not.

 

[Woody Taylor]

Yes. crop/dock is all about visual perception just as spay/neuter is all about convience for the owner. I know! Both generalizations, but more the norm then not.

I still maintain spay/neuter is a different deal. My opinion. That is not a cosmetic procedure...tail and ear docking are...even if spay/neuter is done for "convenience" there are downstream issues that are minimized as a result of it.

Two different issues, two different sets of ethical considerations.

 

[Bob Scott]

Researchers ar now finding that spay/nueter has many down sides to it, such as a higher rate of bone cancer. You could also argue that a dog wont get ear or tail cancer if they don't have them. :roll: Ok, ok, I'm streaching on that one. :wink:
Connie posted some of this info on another form.
Connie?

 

[Woody Taylor]

Yes. crop/dock is all about visual perception just as spay/neuter is all about convience for the owner. I know! Both generalizations, but more the norm then not.

You have an ulterior motive here, Bob, I bet you just like docking your terriers and can't stand all these generalizations. :twisted:

There's light years of difference between these two types of surgical alteration. The first is done for the convenience of the owner (by making the dog more amenable to their perceptions of attractiveness). The second is done for the overall betterment of the breed and dogs in general, given the individual situations and needs of the owner and the dog.

Are there any dockings done anymore for utility? I thought partial docking, etc. for some terriers was done to pull them from holes or whatever...didn't know if there were still practical reasons to dock. I have never heard of a "legit" purpose for cropping other than minimizing "surface area" in dog fighting, right? No idea.

 

[Sarah Hall]

Although...tail docking is another thing altogether, right? Doesn't that cause pain?

Yes, the actual procedure performed on day-old pups is extremely painful. Here is how it's done:
The puppies are taken from Mom and far enough away so she doesn't hear their screams. In some practices they take them into the surgical room, but most just use the available counter space. Now, there are two methods vets commonly use for docking the tail. The first is to snap the spinal column at the correct docking location, then cut out the bone, and connect the tissues together. Second way is to simply cut the tail straight through (leaving a teeny amount of tissue) and then close the end. Unless the litter owner requests, no local is given, and no pain relievers. Vets will say to the litter owner "they don't feel it because their nerves aren't developed enough yet" but that is a blatent lie. It has been proven that their nerves are developed enough to FEEL the pain and agony of having their tail cut off, however the response is slower. The puppies will stop screaming and then they're taken whimpering and softly crying in pain (they've worn themselves out by this point) back to the litter owner, and the vet usually will proudly say "see, they're all right".
Ear cropping, though not MY cup of tea, is realatively painless if performed correctly. The dog more than likely doesn't experience any more pain than we do when getting ears peirced.

Are there any dockings done anymore for utility?

I have seen quite a few GSDs and Mals with their tails docked for PSD work and Border Patrol work. I think it's a good thing in this case (and these dockings are done under anesthesia) because it does limit sensitive areas that a criminal can grab/yank.

Researchers ar now finding that spay/nueter has many down sides to it, such as a higher rate of bone cancer.

Very true, and early spays (less than 6 months old) are also to blame for older female dogs having urinary incontenance, and in some males bowel incontenance. Of course, vets push for it saying intact male dogs are at risk for developing testicular and prostate cancer, and intact females are at risk for uterine, ovarian & mammary tumors. I guess it's a case of "Damned if you do, Damned if you dont!"

 

[Jerry Lyda]

Now lets talk about circumcision on an infant. No let's don't. Lets talk about breast enhancement, no let's don't. Let's talk about face lifts or any other thing that humans do to humans. NO LET'S DON'T. Lets talk about cutting tails and ears off dogs which we do because some of us like the way it looks. Let's talk about cutting off a dogs parts to keep the amount of pups down. I want go there. Let's talk about anyother thing that we are going to allow the government to TELL us what to do and if we don't they will fine us and or send us to jail. Allow this law to pass and then expect anything else. You know who's fault it will be when they start taking our freedoms away? The next thing the government will do is stop all bite dog competition. Do we want that, not me. Give the government an inch and they will take it all. This law is stupid. It's coming from bleeding hearts that have no clue. If anyone likes the way a dog comes into this world and that's the way you want it to look that's fine with me. If I want to change mine by cutting tails and ears, leave me the H*%^%& alone
This is part of my freedom in this country and I dare you to try and take it or anyother freedom from me without a fight.

 

[Bob Scott]

Well said Jerry! I have no problem at all with the people that make those choices, but let it be just that. A CHOICE! :wink:

 

[Woody Taylor]

Heh. This is a good topic.

Jerry and Bob, what about obligating vets to use anesthetic during the procedures?

 

[Bob Scott]

Heh. This is a good topic.

Jerry and Bob, what about obligating vets to use anesthetic during the procedures?

Absolutely! I wouldn't go to a vet that didn't. That's still a big problem with a lot of the hardcore pit folks. :evil:

 

[Woody Taylor]

Heh. This is a good topic.

Jerry and Bob, what about obligating vets to use anesthetic during the procedures?

Absolutely! I wouldn't go to a vet that didn't. That's still a big problem with a lot of the hardcore pit folks. :evil:

Still a problem with a lot of cheap-ass folks. My buddy's family raised Rotts...backyard breeders of the idiot kind in OK...it was pretty brutal as he described it. Not a lot of margin to play with on a little of pups you sell for $50 a piece.

 

[Bob Scott]

A lot of terrier people still do tails themselves. Supposidly, at 3 days old, the pain is no more then a quick pinch because the tail isn't much more then cartalage at that age. I don't know about that, so I'd still opt for anesthetic.

 

[Tim Martens]

Now lets talk about circumcision on an infant. No let's don't. Lets talk about breast enhancement, no let's don't. Let's talk about face lifts or any other thing that humans do to humans. NO LET'S DON'T. Lets talk about cutting tails and ears off dogs which we do because some of us like the way it looks. Let's talk about cutting off a dogs parts to keep the amount of pups down. I want go there. Let's talk about anyother thing that we are going to allow the government to TELL us what to do and if we don't they will fine us and or send us to jail. Allow this law to pass and then expect anything else. You know who's fault it will be when they start taking our freedoms away? The next thing the government will do is stop all bite dog competition. Do we want that, not me. Give the government an inch and they will take it all. This law is stupid. It's coming from bleeding hearts that have no clue. If anyone likes the way a dog comes into this world and that's the way you want it to look that's fine with me. If I want to change mine by cutting tails and ears, leave me the H*%^%& alone
This is part of my freedom in this country and I dare you to try and take it or anyother freedom from me without a fight.

ah, the old slippery slope argument. the difference between the selective surgeries you described for humans and dogs? in the case of the human, the subject to be altered made the choice. and what happens if it goes wrong? they sue. liposuction is the classic example. we've all seen the oprah horror stories. there is a risk. people should know that going in and if they still make the choice, any possible side effects should be viewed as "oh well, you made your choice". but what happens when an ear crop goes bad? what recourse does the dog have for a surgery that they didn't choose? NONE. they are problems that can occur. when i was a child, the neighbors across the street got a boxer and when they had it's ears cropped problems arose from the surgery. it does happen and for what? so the dog looks pretty to the owner? sorry. i'm not buying it. now if there is some legitimate reason for the surgery such as the dog is going to be worked in a way that the surgery makes it easier for them to work (such as the tail cropping for the terrier to be pulled from a hole or something similar), then i can see that. but ONLY for cosmetic reasons? it's unnecessary cruelty IMO.

i'm just thinking out loud here. i'm no tree hugger by any stretch, but i think a line should be drawn. do i think the gov't should dictate where this line should be drawn? probably not, but maybe so....

 

[Jeff Oehlsen]

So when I pinched those nasty looking tails off Rott pups, I was cruel and unusual?? Just like I so vividly remember my foreskin being cut off. Over thinking this stuff is foolish. I don't remember pups being that pissed off, and I don't remember it at all.

It is a dog. I really haven't seen any complete misery from them missing a tail, or holding it against me for doing so.

This is the same discussion as culling. Do you let your junk puppies go out and possibly breed? When linebreeding, typically to see what recessives you are going to be up against, you inbreed, father/daughter or mother /son. Half the litter is gonna be trash. They are scrap so that you can see the recessives and figure out whether these dogs are truely worth line breeding on.

It is a dog. Hundreds of thousands are killed every year for no reason other than they were born. When you start thinking of them as anything but, it is the downfall of the breeds. Crop their ears, and maybe they will stay in the home, dock the tail, it is not the big deal you are SOOOOOOOO making it. I cannot believe how much crap info is out there. I have had pups that I docked be asleep, or busy feeding, seconds after I did it. How many tails have YOU docked???