Hmm... makes me both worried and excited. The worried part is that the rules aren't going to be strict enough and we're going to have more unstable dogs taught to bite. The excited part is if this may be a step in the right direction for the German Shepherd's future in the US. I'm wondering if the idea of what a German Shepherd SHOULD be (as well as the other approved breeds in this sport that are suffering a plight like the GSD) is finally getting into the director's minds! This will change, somewhat, the breeding of the German Shepherd Dog because the average show GSD cannot compete without risk of injury in protection. Perhaps all dogs to compete will be required to have hips/elbows OFA'd or PennHip'ed?! I hope so. This may start to change the AKC's guidelines on breeding, and may bring it one step closer to an SV-style breeding program. That would put a LOT of breeders out of business, but it should be about the quality of the dogs, not the breeder's bottom line. Maybe I'm getting too worked up over such a small step, but I wonder what the ripple effect will be 10 years down the line?!
AKC protection sport approved
I think this is good others may not. Here's what the AKC has said about it.
http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=2876
http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=2876
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I have a slightly different worry. I''m thinking this "WDS" title won't be anywhere near as stringent as a SchH or ring title, and therefore will lessen the meaning of traditional working dog titles. It's going to depend on teh rules and regulations set out for this "sport". I also put no stock in AKC titles and am wondering if this isn't going to just feul the sale of the AmBred shepherd (look, he has a WDS along with his Ch!!).Sarah Hall said:Hmm... makes me both worried and excited. The worried part is that the rules aren't going to be strict enough and we're going to have more unstable dogs taught to bite. The excited part is if this may be a step in the right direction for the German Shepherd's future in the US. I'm wondering if the idea of what a German Shepherd SHOULD be (as well as the other approved breeds in this sport that are suffering a plight like the GSD) is finally getting into the director's minds! This will change, somewhat, the breeding of the German Shepherd Dog because the average show GSD cannot compete without risk of injury in protection. Perhaps all dogs to compete will be required to have hips/elbows OFA'd or PennHip'ed?! I hope so. This may start to change the AKC's guidelines on breeding, and may bring it one step closer to an SV-style breeding program. That would put a LOT of breeders out of business, but it should be about the quality of the dogs, not the breeder's bottom line. Maybe I'm getting too worked up over such a small step, but I wonder what the ripple effect will be 10 years down the line?!
I guess what I'm getting at is will we see the intensity and proper working drives in these titled dogs, or will they be shadows of SchH titled ones?
Very true. I'm only HOPING these trials will be strictly regulated. Of course, we are talking AKC here :roll:
Plus the GSDCA is going to be overseeing the trials for AKC, and we all know where THEIR allegiance lies :evil:
Plus the GSDCA is going to be overseeing the trials for AKC, and we all know where THEIR allegiance lies :evil:
My understanding is that the Schutzhund rules will apply.
Hmm... this will be very interesting to see how this turns out. All those hotshot AKC show breeders will be blown out of the water by German style GSDs!
I'm really up in the air over this one. If to many ASS (American Show Shepherd) dogs fail in attempts to get titiles, two things will happen. Weak, nervy dogs will be getting bite trained 
, and requirements for titles will start becomming weaker so these dogs can earn one.
Who will be the judges and helpers for these events? I belong to a WDA club and we're not real keen on it.
, and requirements for titles will start becomming weaker so these dogs can earn one. Who will be the judges and helpers for these events? I belong to a WDA club and we're not real keen on it.
I don't think we'll see the German style dogs winning; I think we'll see the AmBred dogs being chosen over the German ones to further the AKC agenda. I'm just not a fan of this idea.Bob Scott said:I'm really up in the air over this one. If to many ASS (American Show Shepherd) dogs fail in attempts to get titiles, two things will happen. Weak, nervy dogs will be getting bite trained
Who will be the judges and helpers for these events? I belong to a WDA club and we're not real keen on it.
I also think it will end in weak, nervy dogs being bite trained, which will increase teh number of vicious bites these breeds will be accused of, which will end the WDS program and further negative public opinion of the breeds. It will lead to more backlash against Schutzhund in general, and ring sport...which means more prejudice for our honest working dogs.
I just smell a rat here.
Good points Bob and Stacia. I thought it said that each parent organization is in charge. So that would mean, for German Shepherds, the GSDCA, which means they will, in turn, put it on the GSDCA-WDA. :roll:
I just hope this WON'T turn out like what you both are saying. For the sake of the breed. It's only a matter of time for those unstable ASS(Thank you for that one Bob :wink: ) to bite a few people and then BSL will spread like wildfire. The'll say "Look at these SHOW DOGS that are biting! The breed really IS bad, and [insert city name here] will not allow them in city limits!"
Then I'll just have to move...
I just hope this WON'T turn out like what you both are saying. For the sake of the breed. It's only a matter of time for those unstable ASS(Thank you for that one Bob :wink: ) to bite a few people and then BSL will spread like wildfire. The'll say "Look at these SHOW DOGS that are biting! The breed really IS bad, and [insert city name here] will not allow them in city limits!"
Then I'll just have to move...OK, here are my thoughts on it...
1. It's about time! This program has been in the works for a LONG time, I've been following it for about 2-3 years.
2. This appears to be the AKC trying to get in line with FCI/SV demands. AKC/GSDCA were supposedly told they had 10yrs to get some sort of working minimum standard going for the GSD or they might end up losing being able to register them internationally.
3. The GSDCA-WDA should be worried. If this takes off, then the GSDCA will finally get rid of the "red headed stepchild" named the WDA. USCA should be worried as well, if the AKC WD program gets off the ground and going, USCA doesn't have the funds to compete with AKC programs and will end up losing members. Honestly, it serves them right for all the BS fighting rather than working together.
4. Just because the program is an AKC event doesn't mean that subpar dogs will pass. AKC is very concerned about any sort of protection work, so they are going to be very strict about this. The idea that AmCan Line dogs would be chosen over Euro line dogs is funny and sounds like paranoid rambling...and if I were a judge and an AmCan line were better than the Euro line, then I'd place it higher though I don't see that being a common occurence in these events.
5. If the AKC event gets recognition as a working title by the FCI/SV and was easier than a VPG title (haven't seen the rules lately, but heard they were to be the same as IPO), then I'd think the Euro Showline people would be rejoicing. That way they can have their "pretty" dogs getting titled and brag about strong temperament and diverse abilities, when actually they're doing easier work (and probably still doing it subpar).
1. It's about time! This program has been in the works for a LONG time, I've been following it for about 2-3 years.
2. This appears to be the AKC trying to get in line with FCI/SV demands. AKC/GSDCA were supposedly told they had 10yrs to get some sort of working minimum standard going for the GSD or they might end up losing being able to register them internationally.
3. The GSDCA-WDA should be worried. If this takes off, then the GSDCA will finally get rid of the "red headed stepchild" named the WDA. USCA should be worried as well, if the AKC WD program gets off the ground and going, USCA doesn't have the funds to compete with AKC programs and will end up losing members. Honestly, it serves them right for all the BS fighting rather than working together.
4. Just because the program is an AKC event doesn't mean that subpar dogs will pass. AKC is very concerned about any sort of protection work, so they are going to be very strict about this. The idea that AmCan Line dogs would be chosen over Euro line dogs is funny and sounds like paranoid rambling...and if I were a judge and an AmCan line were better than the Euro line, then I'd place it higher though I don't see that being a common occurence in these events.
5. If the AKC event gets recognition as a working title by the FCI/SV and was easier than a VPG title (haven't seen the rules lately, but heard they were to be the same as IPO), then I'd think the Euro Showline people would be rejoicing. That way they can have their "pretty" dogs getting titled and brag about strong temperament and diverse abilities, when actually they're doing easier work (and probably still doing it subpar).
I'm sure there are a handful of sound American Shepherds, but if you want to compare, more GERMAN German Shepherds are working dogs (protection, schutzhund, police service dog, etc.) than American Shepherds because of their mental soundness. I am not a fan of show shepherds here in America (even some of the German lines are getting out of hand), but it's still my opinion that if this thing is run correctly, then the true Shepherd will shine. Maybe von Stephanitz's ideals shall re-enter the minds of breeders.
Love the diatribe on European show dogs. Always a treat to read about my "subpar" dog in the morning.Mike Russell said:5. If the AKC event gets recognition as a working title by the FCI/SV and was easier than a VPG title (haven't seen the rules lately, but heard they were to be the same as IPO), then I'd think the Euro Showline people would be rejoicing. That way they can have their "pretty" dogs getting titled and brag about strong temperament and diverse abilities, when actually they're doing easier work (and probably still doing it subpar).
I still think this is a bad idea. I sort of liked the AKC keeping its nose out of working dog sport...
Take a look at a few vids on the Family Treasures site. Count how many dogs either don't engage or do a poor job of barely hanging on during the protection work on the Sieger show videos. Then go to the National SchH events videos and look at the difference in drive, courage, and grip.Stacia Porter said:Love the diatribe on European show dogs. Always a treat to read about my "subpar" dog in the morning.
Another thing to ponder. The GSDCA and the WDA are always butting heads. It seemS the WDA would be the logical choice to run the program, but according to the article, it will be the GSDCA. :-k
The "red headed stepchild", as Mike R so well put it, may be up for adoption.
The "red headed stepchild", as Mike R so well put it, may be up for adoption.
Actually, what would probably happen if this program went through and GSDCA was one of the main entities behind it, they would no longer need the WDA and would probably cut all funding and disband it.
USCA would find out that this is NOT a thing they want, because once the WDA is gone and the AKC & GSDCA start pouring money into this, the USCA would lose members as well and end up going away eventually. They'd be completely shut out, seeing as AKC is the only FCI recognized registering entity and the GSDCA is the recognized Breed Parent Club in this country...which means if the sport resembles IPO very closely, then the GSDCA will select members to compete at the FCI & WUSV events. They will not be as friendly to USCA as the WDA is, they'll just tell them "No" flat out and recommend they join the GSDCA and get with the program if they want to compete.
DVG may or may not be effected, as they are an all breed club and never really had much influence on these things in America. So that will leave the status of SchH and its "major players" in the USA in a major upset...and might end up making USCA going back to all breed just to keep membership up.
This is all speculation, of course, and I wouldn't expect this to all happen rapidly. It is how I see it going if the AKC WD program really takes off though.
USCA would find out that this is NOT a thing they want, because once the WDA is gone and the AKC & GSDCA start pouring money into this, the USCA would lose members as well and end up going away eventually. They'd be completely shut out, seeing as AKC is the only FCI recognized registering entity and the GSDCA is the recognized Breed Parent Club in this country...which means if the sport resembles IPO very closely, then the GSDCA will select members to compete at the FCI & WUSV events. They will not be as friendly to USCA as the WDA is, they'll just tell them "No" flat out and recommend they join the GSDCA and get with the program if they want to compete.
DVG may or may not be effected, as they are an all breed club and never really had much influence on these things in America. So that will leave the status of SchH and its "major players" in the USA in a major upset...and might end up making USCA going back to all breed just to keep membership up.
This is all speculation, of course, and I wouldn't expect this to all happen rapidly. It is how I see it going if the AKC WD program really takes off though.
Dumb question, I guess, given that I'm not seeing it brought up in the thread (or I missed it): why would they not have put Mals and Belgian Sheepdogs in the "approved breeds" list?
I guess I can see where you all would be hesitant about being excited about it...on the other hand, I think it would only help the sorry state of things in these (4) breeds today if they're diligent about policing it. The notion of breed conformation from the AKC's perspective extending out to working ability seems to be a smart.
Actually I'm just being selfish, maybe this means I can show up to my local AKC-chartered training school with a prong now. ;-) Annie will be ecstatic that she can get rid of the Gentle Leader for ob proofing. :lol:
Edited to ask...let's say it takes off...isn't the training community for this event going to be pulled from the Schutzhund/Ring community? It's not like AKC ob clubs know how to teach bitework. Wouldn't that at least provide that some positive "genes" are brought over?
I guess I can see where you all would be hesitant about being excited about it...on the other hand, I think it would only help the sorry state of things in these (4) breeds today if they're diligent about policing it. The notion of breed conformation from the AKC's perspective extending out to working ability seems to be a smart.
Actually I'm just being selfish, maybe this means I can show up to my local AKC-chartered training school with a prong now. ;-) Annie will be ecstatic that she can get rid of the Gentle Leader for ob proofing. :lol:
Edited to ask...let's say it takes off...isn't the training community for this event going to be pulled from the Schutzhund/Ring community? It's not like AKC ob clubs know how to teach bitework. Wouldn't that at least provide that some positive "genes" are brought over?
Woody, I don't think I'm the only GSD owner that only competes in schutzhund/ASR or any other ring sport. I am also a board member of the local GSD AKC club. There is probably others as well. I think it is a good thing the AKC finally doing this. The way I understand it is the reason other breeds are not in it is because it's a test period for a certain amount of time. I also don't think you'll be seeing a lot of showline dogs in it either. It takes a special person who is willing to train for WD titles. The run around the ring show person will not be doing this. Not enough dedication there. You will see some that have these dogs that will be dedicated enough to title their dogs. It's not so much that the showline dogs won't do this sport, it's more that the people with these dogs won't. Agreed that most of the showline dogs won't but some will. Let's set back and see what happens.
I don't see any problem with your logic, sir. I guess I'd say as a n00b that even the six or so months exposed to forums and training that you all are involved in changed my notions of what expectations one should have in a good GSD, etc. Any other way to educate people on breeds you all care about and qualities you like in them is goodness, IMHO.Jerry Lyda said:Woody, I don't think I'm the only GSD owner that only competes in schutzhund/ASR or any other ring sport. I am also a board member of the local GSD AKC club. There is probably others as well. I think it is a good thing the AKC finally doing this. The way I understand it is the reason other breeds are not in it is because it's a test period for a certain amount of time. I also don't think you'll be seeing a lot of showline dogs in it either. It takes a special person who is willing to train for WD titles. The run around the ring show person will not be doing this. Not enough dedication there. You will see some that have these dogs that will be dedicated enough to title their dogs. It's not so much that the showline dogs won't do this sport, it's more that the people with these dogs won't. Agreed that most of the showline dogs won't but some will. Let's set back and see what happens.
The Belgian Shepherds aren't on the "approved list" because thier parent club(s) didn't push to get the AKC to do this. The Bouv, GSD, Dobe, & Rottie parent clubs did...since they showed the most interest and pushed for it the hardest, they are the ones allowed to do the WD program during the test period. Who knows what will happen after the test period.
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