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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So as not to hijack anyone elses topic again (my apologies), I'll post this here: Back in my ignorant days, I thought only police k-9's who were properly trained, along with their handlers, were the only "real" dogs. I thought that "sport dogs" were lacking. Not just one sport or the other - all. As I said, that was back in my ignorant days.

I have since opened my eyes to see what I could not/would not before. A person choses to enter a specific sport or job with their dog usually for one of two reasons - it is what caught this person's interest or because that is what is available geographically to the person. Whichever the reason, whatever the sport/job, the person should be commended for the time and effort and determination it takes to obtain any title with their dog. I have seen way to many of the working breeds tied to a tree out back - if nothing else these "sport dogs" have a purpose and are usually treated much better then the throw aways. If one was to take an honest and open minded assessment of all the dog sports and yes, even the national certification for police k-9's - none of them test everything about a dog - all have their faults. There is no such thing as the perfect test of a dog or the perfect dog.

The "politics" of various sports is what drives most people (who have the luxury of having other sports nearby) from that particular sport in search of a "better" one. I would love to have a dog that can compete (with high scores) in them all - is it possible? don't know, but I'm sure gonna try and have fun doing it with my dogs.

Those that can.....do.....those that can't.....bash. :twisted:
 

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Lacey Vessell said:
So as not to hijack anyone elses topic again (my apologies), I'll post this here: Back in my ignorant days, I thought only police k-9's who were properly trained, along with their handlers, were the only "real" dogs. I thought that "sport dogs" were lacking. Not just one sport or the other - all. As I said, that was back in my ignorant days.
Were you a K9 handler in those days? If so, out of curiosity, where did you think your police dogs came from?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Good question. In all honestly I guess I never thought about it. All of the police dogs in the county I worked were imports - KNPV which I did not and still don't consider a "sport" - my opinion mind you. I had my ignorant opinions even back then, when a handler at a seminar etc., would brag about SchH/IPO titles that his four legged partner had.

Yes I was a police k-9 handler at that time.
 

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i agree with everything you said in your first post. i would be curious to find out why you don't consider KNPV to be a "sport". is it because it has the word "police" in it?
 

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Quote: The "politics" of various sports is what drives most people (who have the luxury of having other sports nearby) from that particular sport in search of a "better" one. I would love to have a dog that can compete (with high scores) in them all - is it possible? don't know, but I'm sure gonna try and have fun doing it with my dogs.

I don't know about high scores, but there are dogs that have titled in FR MR and BR.

I do know that training aspects of Sch tend to interfere with certain parts of ring if trained in Sch first. The object guard is affected for certain, if the decoy walks up slowly the dog is more than likely to hold and bark. There are more, but I would have to think too hard to come up with them. It is not a smear against Sch, or Ring, just a reality of training differences, and what it is the dog will percieve going on at the time.

I, myself, bash. I am old school like this, but I do not bash just to bash.

I was in Sch long ago, and the watered down version we see today irritates me not so much in the politics of the sport, but what it has done to the breed, and to what people want to see in a dog. Especially new people that tend to spout what they are being taught as if it were truely law, when they do not understand it. This is also one of the demonizing factors for me of internet boards like this and others. People spout off, and others take it verbatim as law. Of course others get pissy and start flaming. ( I always thought that was a gay bash...OOOPs)



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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Tim Martens said:
i agree with everything you said in your first post. i would be curious to find out why you don't consider KNPV to be a "sport". is it because it has the word "police" in it?
Actually no, not because it has police in it. If that was the case, I would not think of USPCA (United States Police Canine Association) certification as sport like. I think of KNPV as more of a prerequisite for a potential police dog - like boot camp for dogs.
 

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but you know that a dog does not need his PH1 to be a police dog in holland right? and that the overwhelming majority of KNPV competitors are civilians right? it is no more a prerequisite for police work in holland than SchH is in germany. it is by all definitions, a "sport".

just as there are SchH dogs that cannot do police work, there are plenty of PH1's that cannot do it either (probably a lot lower percentage though).
 

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Im not agreeing with anything. :x :x :x

Unless the handler and the dog are put into real life stressful situation or at least as close as you can get,then its not an accurate assessment of how "real" the dog is.

Anything that is pattern trained becomes sportlike.

Only when the dog in placed in an ever changing environment,like policework,will you see the dog's true effectiveness as a working dog.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Darn, I did not mean for this thread to be about police dog per se. Police dogs are not for the whole - the end all be all of working dogs. No doubt there are more then a few on here that have seen dogs that are working the streets that should not be there. Sadly in more then a few cases it is not because of the dog - the dog was the S$%^ when it first hit the streets - it is because the dog is permitted to go to S%7^ because of a lazy handler or a department that neither demands proficiency training or test their standards - more often then not these are the dogs that ride around in the back of a car for eight to twelve hours rarely getting to see the outside unless called up (might as well be tied to a tree). No matter what any dog is used for,the initial training of that dog is done by repetition - conditioning a dog to respond the way we want them to given a command or situation - for that is how all dogs learn.....even police dogs.

As for KNPV - I think it is a very good prerequisite for any dog that is going to work the streets. Yeah, I do know that civilians handle and train the dogs. Heh, some of the best trainers and decoys I've worked with are civilians. I also know that there are many civilian agencies here that sell trained dogs to police departments. My choice in selecting a green dog for L.E.- would be one that had been trained in KNPV already. My choice of selecting an agency to train this green dog (if I did not do it myself) would be a person that has worked the streets - has been there, done that and knows what is needed. Which is not to say that if someone brings me this awesome dog that possessed all the drives and traits that I was looking for but it has titled in SchH or FR, BR etc instead of KNPV that I would not snatch him up. For all we know the greatest dog (sport or police) is tied to a tree in someone's back yard.

Which brings me back to what I originally was trying to get across when first posting this thread: How are we going to know what drives, traits desires a dog possesses if we don't see a dog in action. Not everyone has the opportunity to work their dogs out on the streets as LEO - so we take what we can in the dog sports. What I want in a dog - is not necessarily what you want or need in a dog. I'm not gonna bash you just because your idea's of what a "real" dog is happens to be different from mine, which I see a fair share of in some of these threads. If you don't like a particular sport, don't do it - leave the bashing for those who tie their working breeds to a tree in their backyards.
 

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and, just as a caveat, from what i've been told, in this part of the country, after inquiring about doing some training w/PD here:

these ppl do not really train, they mostly attempt to "maintain" the training their dogs have when they purchase them. and maybe that's enough for the PD, and that's ok for them.

i have offered to let them use my property to train--gotten a "less-than" enthusiastic response from them , and see no real reason to chase after them: i'll just train mine. their loss.
 

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I see this in a different light.

Sport dogs and Police dogs can come from the same genetics...and most often do.

Most trainers train in a sport like fashion, whether they're developing a police dog or a sport dog. This is easy and easily transferrable.

The breeds suffer due to sports "points" because points are often political, and by extension economical. People don't know what they're really breeding to.

High level in all dog sports is VERY HIGH. Almost all of those dogs are good, great, or better. Trainers too - but for being one dimensional, and for using some of the pattern training systems.

The fact that dog sports exist is immaterial - IMV - the problem is there are too damn many sport dogs.

...working dog "lite"...by handler "lite" and smiley.

BTW, Lacey...not much beating around the bush for you... :lol: The puppy title under your name is camouflage...
 

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Lacey Vessell said:
As for KNPV - I think it is a very good prerequisite for any dog that is going to work the streets.
perhaps just a grammatical thing, but when you use words such as "prerequisite" which means REQUIRED beforehand. saying a KNPV title is required for a police dog severly limits your choices.

then you go on to say:

Lacey Vessell said:
Which is not to say that if someone brings me this awesome dog that possessed all the drives and traits that I was looking for but it has titled in SchH or FR, BR etc instead of KNPV that I would not snatch him up.
thereby nullifying the "prerequisite". i know this is just a semantics argument and we're both on the same page here. dog first. their sport second. all things being equal, i too would opt for a KNPV titled dog over a "green" dog, a ScHH dog, a FR dog, etc. which of course is not to say i'd overlook any flaws because of the title.

as far as "bashing", i'll go back to what i said in the other topic. i would never bash a dog sport on the merits of the sport itself. i'm all for people doing stuff with their dogs. it's the people who try to claim their chosen sport is the be all, end all of dog activities or point out that simply because of the title, a dog is guaranteed to possess "X" trait(s) (in that specific instance "X" was defense).

and i agree with everything andres said in his last post. greg too (i'm now ready to jump off a cliff :lol: )...
 

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Quote: I'm not gonna bash you just because your idea's of what a "real" dog is happens to be different from mine, which I see a fair share of in some of these threads.

A "real" dog is a term that by and large is misused, and rather silly. It is not like the dog at my feet is scooby doo and therefore a cartoon.

Strong dogs show themselves no matter what sport you do. One thing that a lot of people don't think about very often, is that we "sport" people look to condition a specific response, then go about doing so. This conditioning does lend itself to create a dog that bites what we tell it to bite, and to not do what comes naturally.

My only problem is with people's tendancy to breed to high scoring dogs, or "winners" these dogs are typically average, to slightly above average, and should not be bred.



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Jeff Oehlsen said:
My only problem is with people's tendancy to breed to high scoring dogs, or "winners" these dogs are typically average, to slightly above average, and should not be bred.
while in it's purest form, this may be true, too often people take the route of "my dog is too civil" or "my dog is too real" to score high, when in fact a little more training or a better, more focused training regimen would lead to high scores (as lacey originally said)...
 

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Me too, I have seen one in Ringsport, to civil and they had a lot of trouble with him. But not in a bad nerve way, but a too civil forward way.
I had one dog who showed her civil side immediately on her first agitation work. So I never tried sport with her.
Another dog I had was too civil after his confidence came back from previous bad training and he was the weak nerved civil, I suspect he would be forward and then back off if pushed back by the attacker or threat. He had no prey, just civil. Hope I have the terminology right.
 

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Jeff Oehlsen said:
I have seen the "too real/civil" dogs. Many are nervy. Some in a good way, forward. Others not so good. I have seen dogs that are just too much and cannot be trained for the sport, but I have not seen any in a loooooooong time. Even then, only three.
and that proves my point. in all your years you have only seen three such dogs, thus lending credence to my assessment of those phrases being way too over used...
 

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Jeff Oehlsen said:
Tim, I was going along with you. :p
holy crap. in one day i am in agreement with greg long, andres martin and jeff oehlsen. tomorrow will surely be the end of the world as we know it....
 
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