[Meng Xiong]

Rey if you are doing PP the right way, first understand what your dog can do, then figure out what it can't, then go from there. A good PPD should have balanced prey and defense drives. Some high in the defense. Also understand that some lines are SLOW to mature even at 2 years of age!

If you take the dog faster than it can mentally handle it, you will screw it up. Find someone who understands the concepts behind bite development and GS lines. Not all soccer plays make it to the national team, not all cops eat donuts, and not all German Shepherds can do REAL bite work, in prey yes...when the stuff hits the fan, no. This goes for any breed.

Pohraniční Stráže)... oh crap there is your answer!

Not all cops eat donuts? :-o8-[

 

[Jehane Michael Le Grange]

The prey drive should be channeled from 8-10 weeks of age, onto a rag or piece of leather then a bite tug or sausage and then a bite pillow and finally a arm...if all goes well you can have a dog on the arm by 6 months old...things to remember are to maintain a good grip and build loads of drive and confidence with the dog. subject him to as many different biting situations as possible with plenty of distractions (but gradually as his confidence allows) ALWAYS maintaining a full hard but calm grip (a good helper will always do this) when the dog has loads of drive and confidence (you seriously need to do lots and lots of teasing, missing the arm, frustration, etc the dog really has to be going ape shit before you start training other biting exercises, putting 2-6 dogsout with him will also add to the whole drive thing but individual sessions are also necessary)(maybe at a year old) the helper's attitude towards the dog hasto change, the dog should bark to stimulate the helper. also have lots of equipment lying around and have the helper tease the dog or get the dog to stimulate him without using any equipment other than perhaps a whip to start with...ideally you want the dog to be barking at the helper and ignore all the bite equipment lying around him. also when the helper does engage the dog he needs to work the dog hard and be serious to stimulate more of a fight reaction in the dog. this civil aggression also needs to be put into practice by having a civil helper with nothing but a concealed whip approach the dog (the dog should be chained) in a calm manner, the handler should give a "watch him" command, usually the dogs just stand there and wag the tail not knowing what the handler wants. the helper should continue his approach and when in range give a good threatening gesture and even a crack towards the dog with a hwip and run away. this should be done a few times and very soon the dog will begin to show aggression when he hears the "watch him" command. this is developed and the hidden sleeve can be introduced, a full bite suit is also not a bad idea and bitework in more realistic situations also works well. the muzzle can be seen as the final step in testing "live biting" of a dog. also have the helper hide a sleeve behind a bush or tree, etc. he should appraoch, get a reaction and tease the dog with no equipment and then run towards the tree or bush out of the dog's sight and quickly put the sleeve on at which stage the dog is releasedthe dog shouldn't know that the helper has a sleeve and should be chasing a civil helper.

This is just a very very quick breakdown of how we go about developing live biting dogs. when they get to the point where I am pretty sure they can be switched on by the hanlder's voice/command alone and will bite a civil helper (live bite) then we start with serious scenario training.

 

[Rey Anderson]

thanks for the info! will update you guys on the progress..

 

[Mike Lauer]

nice breakdown Jehane

 

[Butch Cappel]

Rey you took a dog from proven protection lines and then socialized, exposed and raised it properly and, from your description at least, you now have exactly what you were looking for. I would add another thought to what your trainer said about dogs socialized off leash. The good ones get very, very confidant and comfortable with people.

I believe Derryl wrote "the dogs talent is recognizing the trainer is not a threat" That is exactly what you get with a good stable dog that is raised right, Confidence! Have you heard the saying "Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder"? In PP terms it might sound like this "Stress is in the heart of the dog" if the dog is very sure of himself, what your trainer is doing to push him into "defense" just may not really mean much to the dog.

In the Security Dog industry we have a saying, "You can only train with what the dog gives you." You say you cannot get this dog to look at a sausage/tug or sleeve in Prey, so that is not something he gives you to train with.

I don't know how stressful your trainers civil agitation is, if it is just eye contact and stalking, or flanking and other more physical methods, but the facts are there are few dogs, even poorly bred dogs that wont respond if they think their bacon is about to go in the fire. You just have to find where he keeps his bacon.

I can hear the howls now "Defense smashes the dog, first build confidence, start in Prey only!!!!" But this dog is already full of confidence so no need to worry, you just need the right method to trigger his Defense.

I am sure your trainer is well aware of all the old fashioned techniques like flanking, toe twists, etc. but you really don't have to get that physical with most confident dogs. If you go to the K9 PRO SPORTS web page on our forum you will find posts about techniques we call Fence Kicking, and Twilight Raids, these are types of civil agitation that touch a dogs sense of responsibility and will fire up almost any dog. It is a little lengthy so I wont bore everyone here.

Sounds like you have a really nice dog, can't wait to hear how he does after you figure out his combination.

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com

 

[Dan Brigham]

yes thats correct sir.. prey has a big role..but in our methods we dont use prey drives.. but ill try to consult that and all that is suggested here is highly noted.. i appreciate all the inputs.

besides prey what else can i do about this..

im very sorry for the questions im throwing im just worried i wont be that effective handler to my dog..

Let's see since you don't use prey drive in your work. What you just go beat the dog with sticks until they bite????? Great if the dog works out of just being pissed off or out of fear.](*,)

I am curious why NOT use a drive that the dog shows to get to using the drive that you want them to use????

If this dog doesn't work out, what are you going to do, buy a dog that just wants to bite anything??? I suggest the local junkyard.

 

[Oldk9man]

Well said, and snake oils are for sale at five!!! Not all breeders know what they are breeding, big bucks fill some eyes in Fido Land! Better know this person and his/her background. I have seen some German Shepherds which came from "respected breeders" and the dogs were JUNK! All they were doing was creating $900 pay checks from Fluffy's actions!!!:-({|=

Breeders can be “blind” to what their pups will actually be able to do. Also understand that even with the best breeding not every puppy/dog out of a breeding is capable of doing it all. Personally I would have waited on the agility to make sure all the bones are set and not become damaged in anyway. I would also have started a puppy on a rag and tug all in prey drive before ever considering putting any pressure on a young dog and slowly build the stress (defense)