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Discussion Starter #1
Hello fellow dogmen! Im seeking help regarding my male black gsd.. hes 2 yearsold this oct ang it seems that he has no civil aggression at all when we are trying to agitate him for biteworks.He is great at agility and stability excercises but the only thing is his agrgression.I am begining to worry because he came from a good working line lineage and i dont want to waste his talent.. i know he has it in him but i don't know how to bring it out..I was training him offleash so i could be comfy with him where ever I go with out keeping him on a leash.My friend and a very good dogman too said that its one of the drawbacks of ofleash training, the dog became too friendly and doesnt recognize any threats anymore thats why he is has nothing on agitation.

I am begging you my fellow dog handlers especially the PP handlers please help me..
 

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There is nothing wrong with off leash traiing, and it had nothing to do with your dog not being aggressive enough.

Dog's either have it or they don't. You won't know unless the situation arises.

Whatever you do, don't get into the whole "I know my dog has it in him" thing, as many of them do not, and get abused during training to "bring out" what just isn't there.

Just because the dog doesn't show "aggression" doesn't mean he won't do the job. The idea is to have the dog bite on command. How he does it means nothing. Still hurts.



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Discussion Starter #3
thanks very much!!

yes i know i should go to that part..here is the whole story if you guys dont mind..

When i got the pup he was 8weeks, i was all geared up because he was my 2nd WGSD to work with. first one was my masterpiece but a late bloomer in biteworks..Now i got the pup because it was the litter i was waiting for.. good strong parents.. dad is a agility master ! great nose for tracking and an explosive biter. the mom is has a super nose and good working abilities aswell ..upon getting the pup home i immediately established bond ..couple of weeks passed new came that my wife is pregnant ..therefore i have to focus on her rather on my dog work.. so from time to time i train him in agility. we did urban and jungle agility. obedience too..then my wife gave birth and the training stopped. i havent traine him for a long time he was in the cage the whole time.. months passed we went back to training and i decided to see if he as the "bite" now on his age.. to my surprise he was not paying attention to the decoy . so what i did is let her watch the other dogs do it for modelling.. he watched 4 sessions on differentd days. now he is still quite friendly no bite at all..
 

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Discussion Starter #4
my friend told me to tie him up on the front yard. since i told him he gets angry whenever someone comes by our house. then if he barks and gets angry to some passers by i have to praise him so he would get the idea.
do you have any idea or any tips for me on how to teach him by command or even bring out the bite in him?:cry:
 

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Why are you starting the dog out in agretion? Work the dog in preydrive and make him like to work the sleew. If he have egnuff preydrive and will work the sleew that way hopfully he will be a bit more serius when his confidens rises and the decoy starts to "chalange" him later on.
 

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Doesn't PP mean pretty promptly :-o :-o :-o
 

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Discussion Starter #7
good idea sir! but the thing is he is ignoring the decoy even in a sleeve.. in our group's style we dont encourage prey drive, we rely on the natural instinct of the dog for the agression to come out.. its like we wait for it ,do some modeling etc. its kkinda hard to explain but im pretty sure you guys have better ideas.
 

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Prey is a part of a dogs natural makeup, why would you not use it to teach the dog? Good trainers use it all!
 

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Have you taken him to a reputable trainer? An evaluation by an actual trainer (no offense to your friend, but unless you're buds with Michael Ellis or something, your buddy might not see the same things as a legit dog trainer) would let somebody see the dog and test it and read the dog to see if bitework is the thing for this dog, how civil he is, etc. Unless your buddy is an experienced trainer, I'd go to somebody else for an opinion. From there, be willing to accept whatever the verdict is, good or bad.

-Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #12
yes thats correct sir.. prey has a big role..but in our methods we dont use prey drives.. but ill try to consult that and all that is suggested here is highly noted.. i appreciate all the inputs.

besides prey what else can i do about this..

im very sorry for the questions im throwing im just worried i wont be that effective handler to my dog..
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Have you taken him to a reputable trainer? An evaluation by an actual trainer (no offense to your friend, but unless you're buds with Michael Ellis or something, your buddy might not see the same things as a legit dog trainer) would let somebody see the dog and test it and read the dog to see if bitework is the thing for this dog, how civil he is, etc. Unless your buddy is an experienced trainer, I'd go to somebody else for an opinion. From there, be willing to accept whatever the verdict is, good or bad.

-Cheers

yes he is a experienced trainer.. he gave me the pup from his breeding..parents are from great lines expecially the sire(from Pohraniční Stráže) i trust him because he has trained good working dogs.and he knows well about them too.. ibut for me what ever the verdict is as you said i will openheartedly accept it. but for now im trying to make the most out of what i have right now.and im trying to learn and see if i can unleash more of his talent. if not im good with a loving wgsd.

 

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Perhaps his "talent" is in knowing that the helper/agitator is posing no real threat. so no real reason to go defensive/aggressive. Maybe try an off-field surprise by night convincing attack.

How's the bitework without the (defensive) aggression, through use of prey? If what you want is the theatrical display of teeth and intensely charged atmosphere, you'll need a different dog.

At two years, you've already influentially shaped him to be what he is, from what he was made of. And you should be already pretty familiar with anything that triggers or switches his behavior.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
you have a point there sir..maybe he knows that its not a real threat that its just a agitation session..i dont want the theatrics i just want to train him in pp where i can tell him to attack when needed and protect me as per his job description.
 

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yes he is a experienced trainer.. he gave me the pup from his breeding..parents are from great lines expecially the sire(from Pohraniční Stráže) i trust him because he has trained good working dogs.and he knows well about them too.. ibut for me what ever the verdict is as you said i will openheartedly accept it. but for now im trying to make the most out of what i have right now.and im trying to learn and see if i can unleash more of his talent. if not im good with a loving wgsd.

I'm no expert but i'd think your trainer/breeder might have a better idea if this dog has what it takes to do the type of training you guys do.

Whats your trainer say about the dog?
 

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You have to crawl before you can walk. Get the dog in there with prey drive, then build him with pressure as you go. If he wont bite right out of the box you have find a way to get him there before you can make him stronger. Not using prey drive is a huge mistake IMO and putting the dog in defense from the git go is a good way to make a weak dog a total wreck.

If he isn't so tough thats all you have to work with. To ensure that he'll at least bite on command you have to use prey drive to get started. In a real situation even a weak bite should be enough to deter an attacker, or at least distract him enough for you to react in a different manner.

Howard
 

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Rey if you are doing PP the right way, first understand what your dog can do, then figure out what it can't, then go from there. A good PPD should have balanced prey and defense drives. Some high in the defense. Also understand that some lines are SLOW to mature even at 2 years of age!

If you take the dog faster than it can mentally handle it, you will screw it up. Find someone who understands the concepts behind bite development and GS lines. Not all soccer plays make it to the national team, not all cops eat donuts, and not all German Shepherds can do REAL bite work, in prey yes...when the stuff hits the fan, no. This goes for any breed.

Pohraniční Stráže)... oh crap there is your answer!
 

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I'm no expert but i'd think your trainer/breeder might have a better idea if this dog has what it takes to do the type of training you guys do.

Whats your trainer say about the dog?
Well said, and snake oils are for sale at five!!! Not all breeders know what they are breeding, big bucks fill some eyes in Fido Land! Better know this person and his/her background. I have seen some German Shepherds which came from "respected breeders" and the dogs were JUNK! All they were doing was creating $900 pay checks from Fluffy's actions!!!:-({|=
 
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